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Petals, Potions and Pouches

- - - - - petals potions pouches

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21 replies to this topic

#1
Vepl

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Since we have already started this subject and close to finishing it. Wanted to bring it up here :)

1. Items (items themselves, not Properties on Wearable Items... that's for another topic) replacing skills (apples, trapped boxes, petals, etc.). Yes, I know, the items have been in place and are working as intended, still not right.

2. Doesn't seem right that someone can have the benefit of having 120 Resist + XX Chiv (Remove Curse) all by carrying a few items. Also throw in all the types of potions with 100% EP (Dex, Str, Heal, Cure, etc.) and it's the same as having Magery + Chiv + Healing.

3. Remove the items. J/K. I wouldn't be too upset about items replacing skills if there were limited (not by how much you can carry, but in usage/benefit). Say maybe, give Resist some added bonus that eating an orange petal and tripping a trapped box won't be able to give you. To have more incentive to use a skill instead of an item. Allow orange petals to be the equivelant to GM resist when it comes to resisting Poison, so it's not a guarantee immunization. Make trapped boxes paralyze you for a few seconds after tripping them (won't 'cause any imbalance in game, it'll just remove the cheap reason to use one). Remove Curse apples/talismans were a bad idea in the first place, but atleast with the talismans you need to wait longer (I think) and recharge the item.


Cooldown timers would be an interesting "quick fix", but I agree with DiP that they won't really solve his issue completely. Each one really kind of needs its own specific fix. For instance, the trapped boxes breaking paralysis. If you're paralyzed, how in the heck are you tripping the trap on the box? The easiest fix there, to me, is to change the setup so that SELF-INFLICTED damage doesn't break a paralysis. The reason we won't likely see that change is the poo-storm it would start. As for orange petals, never bothered with 'em so I couldn't tell ya.

Skill enhancing items - seems logical to me to require a base amount of points in the skill BEFORE you see any improvement from these items. Even if the items will make you an uber-mage, you still have to be at least a bumbling apprentice before you grasp the concept behind magic well enough to utilize the sudden power you're granted, something along those lines.



Think that sums up the problem of petals, potions and trapped pouches/boxes taking the place of magic resist.

The solution that seems to be popular is: Timer on all potions/petals and trapped pouches/boxs. Make it where no potion/petal is 100% effective 100% of the time. If a player has alchemy the potions get a boost in effectiveness. Have that boost greater then EP can reach. Make EP cap around 25%. Trapped pouchs/boxes should still leave a person paralyzed for 5 seconds.

A question I would ask is: If a player has tinkering on a character should it lower the paralyze timer of the trapped box?

Vepl

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#2
DiP

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That would make a little sense, or maybe Detect Hidden/Remove Trap.

Also, there are still apples, grapes, and talismans that kinda all float in the same boat.

Listed as follows:

ITEM----Skill/spell Equivelant---Cost use compared to just having to carry item.

Apples - Remove Curse/Chiv Skill - skill points, gold*(LRC), mana requirement

Grapes of Wrath (I forget what they do, but they do something :P )

Talismans - Property Depenant - Varies (skill points, mana)

Apples could have an extended timer, or have a chance to fail with maybe Taste ID giving a boost.

Grapes of Wrath, I still need to look at.

Talismans have built in requirements (# of uses, timer) but maybe add mana consumption to them so there actually is "something" that you take a hit with for using it.

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Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#3
bendavho

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Yes, I agree, even though I live off items, there needs to be some adjustment.

What do you guys think about this, what if magic resist did stack with your armor resist? Yes, it will be very easy to max out resist (that is the point), but then you can get lots of mods on your suit. Just my 2 cents :)
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#4
Gieschen

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n/t


#5
Vepl

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I'll make a thread just for the magic resist/item topic Ben :)

I'm still checking on grapes of wrath. No idea what they do :-/

So if we reduce effectiveness, put in a timer, add mana cost(?), and allow certain skills to reduce the penalty given to the item. It would encourage the use of real skills and not totally nerf items where they are useless?

Vepl

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#6
DiP

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So if we reduce effectiveness, put in a timer, add mana cost(?), and allow certain skills to reduce the penalty given to the item. It would encourage the use of real skills and not totally nerf items where they are useless?


Sounds good to me. As long as the differences with/without skill would greatly encourage the use of skills.

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Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#7
bendavho

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Sounds good to me. As long as the differences with/without skill would greatly encourage the use of skills.



Hopefully, this happens later then sooner :P
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#8
Gieschen

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So is this one ready to get the final draft? Or are we going to be specific one which items need what?


#9
Vepl

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Ok let me put some numbers to this and let me know what you think.

Petals: No timer as they already have one between uses. 75% effective against lesser poison, 50% effective against poison, 30% effective against greater poison, 20% effective against deadly poison and 10% effective against lethal poison.

Greater Cure Potions: Seven second timer between uses. 100% effective against lesser poison, 80% effective against poison, 60% effective against greater poison, 40% effective against deadly poison, 20% effective against lethal poison. Mana cost of 8. Alchemy skill at GM would: Reduce timer to three second, increase effectiveness two and a half fold and mana cost of 4.

Total Refresh: Seven second timer between uses. Mana cost 15. Alchemy skill at GM would reduce timer to three seconds and mana cost to 8

Greater Strength and Greater Agility: Seven second timer between uses. Mana cost 12. The max benefit from the potion is dependent on your alchemy skill up to 100% at GM alchemy.

Heal: Timers as presently designed. Mana cost 11. Without any alchemy each level of heal would be half as effective as it is now designed. With GM alchemy it would be 100% effective as it is now (sliding scale of effectiveness as alchemy goes up).

Explosion: No timer. Mana cost 20. Effectiveness as presently designed.

Conflagration: No timer. Mana cost 20 Effectiveness as presently designed.

(Note: EP to be capped at a point where it's effect is never greater then 50% of what GM alchemy is.)

Trapped pouches/boxes: Timer of 5 seconds of paralyzation. Mana cost 10. Damage as it is now designed. With GM tinkering a trapped box (nothing will change how a trapped pouch works) will have a 2 second timer and a mana cost of 5.

Talisman: Timer as designed unless used in conjuction with a similar potion. Then the potion timer will take precedence. Add a mana cost of 10.

Enchanted Apple: Timer of seven seconds. Effectiveness of 50%. Mana cost 20. GM cooking will reduce the timer to three seconds, boost the effectiveness to 99% and reduce the mana cost to 10

Grapes of Wrath: (still researching)

Did I over look anything?

Vepl

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#10
Gieschen

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Okay, I am curious why there would be a mana cost for potions? Would something else be more effective/realistic? Say a stamina cost instead, since the character is trying to fight at the same time they are using the potions (generally).


#11
Vepl

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Good question Gieschen. Main reason I picked mana is: the skill that most of the items replace would cost the player mana to use. Question I would ask you. Is stamina cost a real deterrent to using an item?

Grapes of Wrath give a DI for a short time. So not sure if it needs to be addressed or not since DI already has a hard cap.

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#12
DiP

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Looks good Vepl, but maybe let GM+ Resist give a 50% bonus with all the success chances with Orange Petals.

Great, now we have to look into Grapes of Wrath even more. With the DI we've already had a lengthy discussion with because we have to find out what kind of DI is applied (does it get applied towards item DI, skill DI, etc.). But if it still is effected by the caps then I guess something along the lines of a timer after the effects are over.

If mana consumption wouldn't work with potions then maybe something like a universal time delay (like casting) of 1.5-2 seconds could apply.

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Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#13
Gieschen

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Hmm, I'll have to think on that one Vepl.

edit: I suppose mana makes sense also since you would have to concentrate to take a potion while fighting. Have no idea what to think about the specifics without testing of course, but they all seem solid.


#14
draken

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sorry i have to jump in but im a poisoner if u put a 20% chance of on greater cure a poisoner uses very little mana with infect and at gm can hit lethal 100% the time it would make say me and anyone like me almost invisable good ideas but for that would have to add a timer or higher mana cost for infect

#15
DiP

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Guess that means others will have to rely on using a skill against your skill, instead of an item, no?

LOL that really made me laugh 'cause I've NEVER died from being poisoned, never.

I don't carry pots, ever, I don't even have any pots in any inventory anywhere.

The entire purpose of bringing this up is to theoretically remove the reliance of items and encourage the use of skills.

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Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#16
draken

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dont get me wronge i aggree should need to rely on skills rather than item but i just think it should be done withought over powering anouther

#17
DiP

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The thing is, items over power some skills already, which should never happen.

Yes, skills should be more powerful than items.

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Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#18
Maddux

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"Magic" or "Finely Crafted" Items should always over power skill, but should have a minimum skill level to wield. "Normal" items shouldn't. Items and skill should be dependent on one and another.

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#19
Gieschen

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"Magic" or "Finely Crafted" Items should always over power skill, but should have a minimum skill level to wield. "Normal" items shouldn't. Items and skill should be dependent on one and another.


I would like this addressed as part of this thread and see where is goes. It brings up a good point.


#20
Vepl

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*disclaimer: The following post is not intended to be taken as a legitimate solution. It is intended to show how easy it is to go further then you intended.*

"Magic" or "Finely Crafted" Items should always over power skill, but should have a minimum skill level to wield. "Normal" items shouldn't. Items and skill should be dependent on one and another.


"Magic" or "Finely Crafted" items should always over power skills. Lets play with that idea.

Lets me introduce Vepl JR. He has "The Singing Sword". It is a "Finely Crafted" weapon. Vepl JR needs only 50 swords with this powerful weapon. He now pwns every Legandary swordsman out there who plays with a lesser sword. To help him out he has 50 tailoring and with a mystic runic he has made the "Tunic of Trust". When wearing it he has 90 resists in every area because he has 50 item id. He found the "Sleeves of Slumber" and with 50 peace he can put anything to sleep until it dies. He bought the "Trouser of Tame" and with just 50 taming he can control every pet. Don't forget the "Circlet of Crushing" he looted of that Legandary swordsman. With his 50 tactics he has 600% damage increase. Then there is the "Ring of Right" he found laying at Luna bank. With 50 healing he gets 100 hp of healing every two seconds, can raise 10 ghosts with one band aid.

As you can see he has only used 350 skill points. With a few more "Magic" or "Finely Crafted" items. He will be able to do all and be all. Might even have more powerful then GM's :P

Before someone laughs this illustration off as to far fetched. When UO first came out in the late ninties. Who would of thought you would be able to cast GM spells with only 20 to 30 real skill (Vampiric embrace is the one that comes to mind).

I would like this addressed as part of this thread and see where is goes. It brings up a good point.


In my opinion, at best equal skills with an item should give a little better then 50/50 chance of winning/curing/removing/whatever, never a guarantee .

Vepl

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