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Devs haven't been posting much... what's up!?...[ turns into as debate :)]

- - - - - debate devs posting turns

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#1
Tabbitha

Tabbitha

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taken from Thread :- Devs haven't been posting much... what's up! found in UO.UHall

Hey devs...

just wondering what's up. Haven't seen a whole lot of dev posts lately.
Are you guys uber busy with KR? If so, hows it going?

What's your next planned landmark? Perhaps the next landmark is killing a player on a prod shard! lol

really I'm just checking in on you guys to see how you're doing.

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First the holidays, now it's been getting back into the grind. Also I am certain KR is taking up more and more of their time, and they can't talk about that yet.


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Are you guys uber busy with KR?




They are probably working their butts off trying to prepare for the town hall meeting. At the meeting they are going to present UOKR and immediately after that we will be expecting it's release. They've got the ball rolling now they are under pressure to present. The pressure is probably rather large.


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Different verse, same as the first.

After a small stint where we were promised that we would be kept apprised of future changes before they were made so that our feedback would be taken into account, they have reverted back to the development model of "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission."

So, we're being treated to changes which aren't sufficiently vetted with the UO player base, aren't sufficiently tested by ANYONE, and will, ultimately (and apparently infinitely) be "tweaked."

Same ole, same ole.


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b] CatHat UO Character/Environments Artist [/b]

Are you guys uber busy with KR?



YUP!

.

:) :) :)


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Good to hear from you again

Happy developing!

I'm really itching to play with KR!

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Different verse, same as the first.


I assume nothing.

The development team SAID that Publish 37 would be the "PvP publish." When it became clear that they had bitten off more than they could chew, they SAID that the "PvP publish" would be over the next couple of publishes.

I assume nothing.

Wilki SAID that the development team would endeavor to communicate with the player base PRIOR to any changes. They TRIED to do that with Diminishing Returns and Proficiencies. However, the feedback they received on these two DISASTEROUS plans was so negative (and correct) that those plans were both withdrawn.....AS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN....

That is what happens when you "communicate" with a KNOWLEDGEABLE player base. They can point out flaws with your plans, especially since so few (if any) of the development team actually PLAY UO on production shards, and fewer PvP... When you tell those players what you plan to do, they can help you "fix" the problems BEFORE they get into the game.

I assume nothing.

They have, since those two plans were discarded, been relatively silent.

However, they HAVE attempted to make some changes to PvP....WITHOUT the promised communication and WITHOUT the promised testing....and, in most cases, OVER THE OBJECTION of people who actually play the game and have an inkling of a clue about how the changes will impact the game.

Just as they did BEFORE the promised "communication" and "proper testing" remarks were made.

So....second verse, same as the first.


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I'm sure they've got everyone working on KR, like it should be, the more people involved will mean more work will get done and there will probably be a better result.
A publish is just another publish they can do afterwards... this is the tenth anniversary and a all new expansion type thing, lay off.


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You know....that's what the developers essentially said prior to the release of SE, and was the impetus for the statement that Publish 37 would be the "PvP publish."

You know...that's essentially what the developers said prior to the release of ML...

Each time, the (PvP) playerbase said..."You know, we're not asking for a whole new combat system or a complete revamp of the item system, we just want you to fix a relatively small list of things." Some of the player base said (each time the "PvP fix" was put off because of "other things," including the two named expansions) "One of the REASONS we don't want a "new combat system" or a "complete revamp" is because we KNOW that, inevitably, you will be AGAIN taken off track by something in the future (new expansion, dupes, PunkBuster, Japanese special promotions, etc.).

As has been the case....every time....for YEARS.

Why on earth you want us to be AGAIN "patient" because yet ANOTHER expansion is coming along which AGAIN is pushing off fixing the PvP system which even the developers have over a YEAR AGO admitted is "broken?" Are you under the impression that THIS TIME, after THIS expansion, that they are actually going to do what they have been promising to do for more than TWO YEARS now?

Won't they have ANOTHER expansion? And ANOTHER?

At SOME POINT, they either need to fix PvP or just tell us to suck it up, and either move on or live with it.

Which, I suppose, they can pretty effectively do by remaining silent...


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Why do you think I'm assuming this? Mr. Tact, while in charge of the PvP live team admitted that he didn't PvP in UO.

Wilki (since he RECENTLY has become a member of the "development team")has implied many times that he doesn't play on production shards (and his view of the game is skewed by that and his "fond remembrances" of LONG PAST days).

Which developer has STATED that they play UO, or PvP on production shards?

Further, I'm simply giving them the benefit of the doubt here. When you put the following things into the game:

1.) 70 point death strikes whether or not the target moves;
2.) 1 Second Bandages;
3.) 100+ point Lightening Strikes;
4.) 90 point word of death;
5.) Fire and forget/insta damage for archers without any other balancing changes;
6.) Self-healing dog archers;
7.) 75% enhance potion rings;
8.) FC added to necromancers;
9.) Insta-damage/fire and forget for archers without any other balancing effects;
10.) Evasion and the bokuto's nerve strike;
11.) INCREASED the damage of the heavy crossbow and the crossbow;
12.) Smoke bombs....
13.) Ornate Axes, Elven Composite Bows, Magic Shortbows...and their base damage....etc.

THEN, when these things are brought up, either DENY that they are occuring or IGNORE the posts...

either do not play the game (and CERTAINLY don't PvP) or are incompetent beyond belief.

I give them the benefit of the doubt and, since none of them have stated that they PvP on production shards, "assume" that they don't play the game.


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Draconi_EA VIP UO Designer

Which developer has STATED that they play UO, or PvP on production shards?

Me, for one.


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I was going to reply to your post by quoting some of your posts. Unfortunately, as is often the case with developers' posts, most of your posts no longer exist (or are archived somewhere not accessible to me). Less than half of your posts are viewable. That is annoying.

However, I have noticed a pattern in those (removed) posts which exibit an extreme distaste for UO post-AoS and the items/item properties resulting therefrom. Further, I'm not sure how you define "playing on production shards."

And, aren't you an artist? What imput do you have regarding changes to combat? What changes to combat have you been a party to?

Were you part of implementing that list of things in my previous post? Do you think that those things (most of which have subsequently been "nerfed") were good additions to the game? Do you think that most of those things would be IMMEDIATELY apparent to someone who actually plays the game as being something which is imbalancing?

For example, I have seen many posts by Wilki decrying how powerful characters are now? Were ya'll unaware of what Bushido did when it was implemented? When ya'll twice bumped the frequency of the loot drops, added marties, tomarties, craftable artifact quality items, etc., were ya'll unaware of what those items actually DID?

I mean, it's awfully hard to, with a straight face, decry the "item based" nature of the game, attempt to "nerf" item properties ("Proficiencies"), when, for the past nearly three years, ya'll have been doing everything in your power to ADD not only the number of items in the game, but the power of those items as well as how easily those items are obtained.

So, you play the game. Did you tell the OTHER developers that 100 point lightening strikes might be a "bad idea?" That "honor and perfection in PvP" might be a "bad idea?" That 90 point Word of Deaths might be a "bad idea?"

If not...why not? Anyone who actually participates in PvP INSTANTLY recognized the power of these abilities...which, of course, is why....later (much later) those things (after much denial and tounge lashing on the boards) those things (and others) had to be "nerfed."

So, you play the game. You were, as I recall, a proponent of the "Proficiency" system Mr. Tact proposed. How you can "play the game" and think that the game as it currently exists could SURVIVE such a system (as proposed) utterly escapes me. What would crafters do? Who would buy their wares once they had their EXTRAORDINARILY easy to obtain suits which maxed out their allowed properties? What would critter hunters have hunted? What would vendor runners put on their vendors? Who would buy anything from them? Yet, as I recall, you were a proponent of Proficiencies.

So, you play the game. What do you think of the ability of being able to deliver armor ignore damage with a bokuto (on top of the freezing in place ability) without tactics or anatomy? Of being able to do 40 points of damage (and better) with a greater explode potion? Of being able to cast evil omen so fast that it is used to interrupt spellcasters while enhancing the damage of their spells by 25%? Of 70 point concussion blows? Of being able to evade more than 50% of all the spells cast at you? What was your stance on these issues?

Why did it take so long (if the developers actually play the game) to NOTICE that the direct damage "fix" in publish 38 didn't "take?" Why did it take more than a YEAR to have honor/perfection and the 100+ point lightening strikes fixed? I find it EXTRAORDINARILY difficult that, if the developers actually played the game (which includes OF COURSE the PvP aspect of "the game") that they would DENY that "1 hit kills" existed for so long....or that it would have taken so long for these issues to have been fixed.

But, hey....what do I know? Maybe the developers LIKED being "1 hit killed," or LIKED getting hit with 90 point word of deaths, or LIKED having an archer standing 2 tiles away sending 50+ point armor ignore salvos at them every 1.25 seconds while healing with 1 second bandages. If they "played the game," then, really, since that is what they had to have been experiencing...they MUST have liked it, since they allowed the condition to last for more than a year....

Or....maybe....more likely....they DON'T play the game. Or, if they do, their definition of "playing the game" is SIGNIFICANTLY different from mine.

...I'm not saying that they have done nothing over the past YEAR, just that much of what they have "done" has had no effect on PvP or has had a DETRIMENTAL effect on PvP. Further, there is no question that crafting has not had much (if anything) done for that playstyle in the past year either.

Or...really...any other playstyle that I can think of for that matter, which, again....makes me wonder why, if they play the game, they don't do things to help these playstyles out?



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5.) Fire and forget/insta damage for archers without any other balancing changes;
9.) Insta-damage/fire and forget for archers without any other balancing effects;
11.) INCREASED the damage of the heavy crossbow and the crossbow;





I assume you repeated 5) and 9) for emphasis purpose. And you forgot to mention the extra Mana/Life leech "changes" granted to archers on top of a bunch of other "changes" (ssi, Mana/life, etc.) dexers have received.

Many of the imbalances in your list have been corrected somewhat, although may not be sufficient enough to you. Over the last 12 months, there is some pvp tweaks in every publish. During the same period of time, how many crafting changes we have seen? How many times have we posted dozen-page-long threads giving crafting ideas after dev asked for them?


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I agree with Drax 100%.

We are going to have to endure 5 months of another gimp template when UOKR comes out. I'd be willing to bet.




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Jeremy_EAMythic UO Community Coordinator

Drax, your statements represent a portion of the playerbase with valid grievances. There are legitimate complaints around the PvP system and combat balance. But any response to your points will come across as defensive - simply because your statements are so accusatory.

Targeting a single dev doesn't help either - the only response he can give to your questions is a personal one, and that wouldn't satisfy you. Unless you have a crush on Draconi himself (and who doesn't?) you don't want to know what HE thinks, you want to know what "the devs" think, and therefore what they'll DO. No one dev, responding in the heat of the moment, can tell you that with any sort of accuracy - particularly about large-scale, multi-system plans.

And unfortunately, we're at a point where no one's going to be able to say anything intelligent about PvP until KR is out the door. We do have it on our radar - I assure you, I would have died to prevent Darkscribe from mentioning a WORD if he wasn't pretty serious about it, producer or no - but until we get KR closer to shipping, PvP won't be our primary focus.

I wish we could do more at once, and that I had another answer to give, but... Honesty is a Virtue, even when it's not much fun.

(There will be aspects of KR that touch PvP, because UI changes touch EVERYTHING, so we will be eagerly looking for your feedback on that front)


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Thanks for your reply.

While my post, from your perspective, may have seem "accusatory," I prefer to think of it as "factual."

Let my lay out in the most simple of terms the problem I have with your post (and the attitude, in general, of the development team):

"And unfortunately, we're at a point where no one's going to be able to say anything intelligent about PvP until KR is out the door. "

This makes NO sense whatsoever. IF there was a "plan" about how to fix combat, this "plan" would INCORPORATE the changes forthcoming in UO:KR. If, however, your statement is to be interpreted as "We don't have the resources to work on anything substantial (such as PvP or combat in general) until we're finished with UO:KR," then, please SAY that.

Then retract it. Please.

It is the SAME thing we heard with SE. It is the SAME thing we heard with ML. Apparently, this is what we're going to hear for the foreseeable future.

We have heard "snippets" of some vaguely undefined "plan" from Wilki in the recent past (e.g., something along the lines of "better get used to managing your mana) which certainly IMPLIES that there is a "plan" for combat changes...not something which is vaguely "on the radar."

If there ISN'T a "plan," then the minimal changes which have been done in the recent (post Mythic) past are....what? Just scattershot reactions to problems, bandages which are "hoped" to hold until if and when ya'll actually DO "get around" to fixing PvP (and combat in general)?

Don't get me wrong. I've said this many, many times. Since I began playing, many things about the game have gotten much better: Crafting, critter hunting, events, housing. But, NONE of these things appear to be part of anything which RESEMBLES an overarching "plan."

PvP is "better" than it was a year ago. PvP is still broken.

We were promised "communication" before changes were implemented. Those promises have not been adhered to. We were promised that changes would be sufficiently tested prior to implementation. Those promises have not been adhered to.

If ya'll don't tell us what you're doing, why does it come as any surprise that we think that you aren't doing anything? Why, after months and months of general silence (interrupted intermittently with minor, cosmetic changes to PvP) with little, if any, reaction to our feedback and with little or no testing (some changes with NO player testing--simply published to Origin) is it surprising that the PvP community continues to be up in arms?

PvP is DIFFERENT than any other playstyle. With critter hunting, you can always go fight different critters or get on a different template, or whatever. With crafting, if you're tired of BoD's, you can make scrolls, potions, runics, or whatever. With every other playstyle, you ALWAYS have options, even if your "preferred" manner of play is "broken."

With PvP, however, there IS no "choice." You face the most broken templates, the most broken and effective tactics. You either BECOME what you face or you fall to them...or both. This is why I cannot fathom why this issue has not been addressed in a more timely fashion. And, even now, all we're getting is that, sometime after the release of UO:KR, it's "on the radar."

That is unsatisfactory.


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Jeremy_EAMythic UO Community Coordinator


Drax, you may have missed this post of mine, as ir was right before the holidays. The question was about our current priorities:

"That's easy, actually. High priority: anything to do with KR, anything to do with live events, critical new bugs. Medium priority: critical legacy bugs that don't have easy fixes, super-easy legacy bugs. (And by "legacy" I mean pre-pub. 43). Low priority: pretty much everything else.

This will change, of course, after KR ships, but right now it's all about stuff with deadlines. "

It doesn't get much blunter than that.


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Good God. So, from "PvP is priority One" to "we'll get to it when we get to it?"

Thanks for the clarification.


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TheGrimmOmen UO Lead Artist


As far as those of us devs who play the game regularly, I do. As a matter of fact, I'm playing right now. Cat, Grumpy, and I play on LS fairly regularly.

-Grimm [/COLOR

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Wilki UO Designer


I was playing UOKR today, as a matter of fact.

Go to bed, Grimm!



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TheGrimmOmen UO Lead Artist

I was playing UOKR today, as a matter of fact.

Go to bed, Grimm!





LOL! Rubbing in the fact that you're already playing UOKR? Evil, evil Wilki! Besides, I'm house decoratiing!

-Grimm



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Wilki UO Designer

@ Drax

Well, I can tell you my personal opinion about PvP: it's not so much that we have a PvP problem, it's that we have issues with combat in general. And crafting. And the availability of useful combat items that are commonly available to the average player. However, I do know that we've been fixing bugs and issues in each publish that directly relate to combat (and thus PvP), and will continue to do so in the future. Most of our time now is going into UO:KR, so that's why you haven't seen any in the past couple months.

Your posting style that you say "provokes a response" pretty much makes my eyes blur while reading over your longer posts. Not because they're wrong, but because (and I mean no offense here) they're not that useful as feedback. We already know that certain things need adjusting. We know that our plans last year didn't pan out as expected, which is pretty darned obvious to everyone. Constant negativity is just grating... it's like having a mother-in-law around screeching in your ear about some mistake you made last year every time you're within range. Factually correct, sure, but also extremely annoying.

Oh, and any "template of the month" that comes out of UOKR is going to be jumped on (if it happens at all). This isn't going to be a repeat of SE or ML, because the designers are very much aware of balance issues and will work with the players during beta to work those issues out ahead of time. I can say without a doubt there will not be a template using new content that is purposefully more powerful than what is already in the game. Different? Sure. But not designed on purpose to make you have to buy a box to stay competitive in PvP. We don't feel that's ethically right, and we simply won't do it. We want you to buy it because it is fun, and you'll enjoy the new stuff on its own merit.

That, I will PROMISE you. Quote me on that.


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[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]
I will leave the last word to this poster..tabby





Drax, I salute you!!

I remember a time when a PvP thread on this forum would generate 10 pages of discussion and when it was no longer on page 1 a new 10 page thread would start.

You sir, are the last of your kind, a PvPer who still has passion for this game.

Heres to Drax, you may not agree with him, but you have to love his fire!

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: debate, devs, posting, turns