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Finally playing with Rising Colossus. Uh oh...


14 replies to this topic

#1
Jaysu

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Alright. I'm a new player, I started almost 2 months ago, and after carefully reading stratics and this forum, I decided to build a mystic/mage is on the build... I was able to get a focus 110 and mysticism 110 scroll. Tonight, I finally got 100 mysticism and 110 focus. I started playing around with rising colossus.

Initially, I was impressed. This was, of course, using it against pitiably weak monsters that I could kill easily with magery alone below 80.

Then I started trying to fight some tougher things. I began to see that more often than not, the colossus is simply dispelled by the monsters before it can do any deal damage. So quickly that I run out of mana just casting the thing.

Now, I'm a brand new player. This mystic/mage is my FIRST character. I don't have tens of millions sitting around to buy loads of arties and 120 ps for everything on my character. It's been a struggle to gather the meager balance I have, and most of that has been spent on a modestly upgraded suit and some cheap kelp woven leggings. But I would expect that with some relevant power scrolls, I'd be able to be... at least competitive.

This, however, is quite silly. With such modest means I didn't expect to be "uber" - just competitive. I'm finding that the "ultimate summon", the sole purpose of this build is, well, exceptionally weak. I see some others around me with their foxes and nightmares and dragons tearing things up, and I'm running my butt off from the thing I'm supposed to be attacking, trying to get off screen to meditate enough mana to cast a thing that's going to get dispelled before it can manage 100 damage.

Enough complaining. It's time for me to get the scoop here: is this just the wrong build for a new player who can't afford much, or what? Is this the sort of thing that DEMANDS full 120 PS, huge mana regen and max mana cost reduction?

Give me the scoop here, oh experienced ones. I feel like I've wasted a monumental amount of time on a character that can't possibly be worth anything without the money of someone who has been playing for 10 years (or UGH wants to buy gold). As cool as this game is, the new player experience here has been pretty... well, arduous, to put it lightly.

#2
Belanos

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Actually I think a mystic mage is probably about the best template for a new player, aside from maybe an Advanced Character Token-created tamer. Its like casting a greater dragon. Rising Colossus' chance to be dispelled does depend on your mysticism/focus skill, so without 120 in each you'll certainly see it dispelled more often. But all this means is that, for now, avoid using against powerful magic users.

The template I run is 120 mysticism/focus/magery/eval/meditation/spellweaving. I always make sure Arcane Empowerment (a spellweaving spell) is active, which has the effect of giving 10% more HP to summons and makes them harder to dispel. So you might try picking up spellweaving on your template if you plan to be relying on Rising Colossus (for the arcane empowerment and the many other spellweaving spells that I couldn't live without).

Also, don't forget that Rising Colossus has a very short duration - it only lasts for about a minute. yours might just be disappearing after its timer runs out, rather than actually being dispelled.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

... it's pronounced 'fel-ookah', not 'fel-oosha' ...

#3
Jaysu

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Belanos, thank you for your reply. Let me ask a couple more questions...

Actually I think a mystic mage is probably about the best template for a new player, aside from maybe an Advanced Character Token-created tamer. Its like casting a greater dragon.

It's funny you should say this - When I was convinced I could kite and cast a RC reliably enough, I went to destard. Heh. :cool

so without 120 in each you'll certainly see it dispelled more often. But all this means is that, for now, avoid using against powerful magic users. The template I run is 120 mysticism/focus/magery/eval/meditation/spellweaving. I always make sure Arcane Empowerment (a spellweaving spell) is active,

Can you give me any idea how much difference there is between, say, 100 mysticism/110 focus... and 110/110, and higher? (115/115... 120/120 etc.)?

which has the effect of giving 10% more HP to summons and makes them harder to dispel. So you might try picking up spellweaving on your template if you plan to be relying on Rising Colossus

My current template is resisting spells and inscription for the damage bonus. I should probably consider spellweaving, I suppose. I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to find people to help me get my focus, not to mention being a noob and working on THREE casting skills at once. (I had thought about picking it up much later.)

Also, don't forget that Rising Colossus has a very short duration - it only lasts for about a minute. yours might just be disappearing after its timer runs out, rather than actually being dispelled.

It was being nearly instantly dispelled by dragons and greater dragons. I cast, it aggros, *poof* its gone, dragon is staring me down, I'm running.

See, I think what frustrates me the MOST here is that RC is so easily dispellable, uncontrollable, and unhealable... all the while absolutely destroying my survivability because I can't use a mount with it. On top of it, I don't get to really use my magery offensively because my mana is getting sucked away faster the more it gets dispelled. I dunno. Something's not adding up to me.

... and I know it's not a single player game :) but for new player, the ability to solo some things somewhat reliably in order to build up some capital... that's invaluable!

#4
Magister_Returns

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That's your problem: GDragons dispel *everything*. They are designed that way. Hunt something else!

Two players casting RC can take down the Faerie Renowned in Abyss without breaking a sweat. Heck, one player can do it with sufficient patience...and that's one of the toughest mini-bosses out there.

You should not be a mystic mage without also being a gargoyle. They fly. They don't need to ride a mount. Plus, they get a bonus to Mysticism and I believe their summons are harder to dispel.

~M

#5
Jaysu

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You should not be a mystic mage without also being a gargoyle. They fly. They don't need to ride a mount.

Yeah.... as a newbie, I didn't even know that. I had not the first clue.

Now I've put a good amount of time into this character and I'm trying to figure out how to solve my problem :( I'd just start a new mystic/mage and make this character a tamer or something... but a guildmate helped me get focus, mysticism, and eval scrolled to 110.

#6
Magister_Returns

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Race change token.

~M

#7
Ashlarrr

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Some creatures will just dispel it and you'll need other tactics to take them down, but other tough creatures can't do much against it. I have always called it Broken Colossus though because it is incredibly powerful for a summon spell.

As for survivability, I have hiding (amongst other things) so I just cast it and throw a smoke bomb.
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#8
Magister_Returns

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Oh yes: Hiding/Stealth/Mysticism is potent.

~M

#9
Jaysu

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Ugh.

Yeah... a new buddy I made in game took me to what he said was one of the easiest champ spawns in the game. The champion spawns, I cast RC, *POOF* dispelled. Try again... same. Over and over. Ended up spamming ebolt and meditating for the rest of the fight while his dragon did the real work.

OK sure, hailstorm was cute for taking down rats quick, but I didn't put 110 points into mysticism to AOE nuke rats.

It's really quite pathetic that my "top tier" heavy hitting ability is so easily and immediately negated by any monster of any real importance. Thinking of turning this mage/mystic into a treasure hunter and rolling a tamer, honestly.

PS. This is with 120 focus, 110 mysticism.

#10
Nimuaq

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I can understand your frustration but I think we can figure out the limits of these summons and the dispel frequencies of monsters if we check some of the lore out there. I also think this is a much needed discussion.

The only publish info about the summoned creatures comes from Publish 31. To sum it up:

If a spell-caster monster has very little chance to dispel a summoned creature, it doesn't even try to dispel it, in order to employ its mana to more efficient spells.

However, some creatures also have Auto Dispel ability, this allows them to dispel a summoned creature automatically. When they are hit by a summoned creature, they use this ability. This ability is not based on the creatures magery, some melee monsters also have this ability, without sufficient mana or magery. For Dragons, auto dispel works 10% of the time and it is porbably far more for greater dragons. If they are also spell-casters, they will also try to dispel it using their magery skill and mana.

Now, let us test this ourselves! What we need is a Crystal Ball of Knowledge and access to TC1. First summon a Rising Colossus with 120 mysticism and 120 focus. Then cast Dispel (not Mass Dispel) on it while the crystal ball is turned on. The trick we're using is: the crystal ball gives both magery difficulty and the dispel difficulty, in that order. Until you have about 79 Magery, the dispel difficulty is: Too Challenging, which is less than 1%. Ratman mage has between 70 to 80 Magery, so it might dispel it, but with a very little chance.

Until you have about 97 Magery, the dispel difficulty is: Very Challenging, which is between than 1 - 20%. So at 97 Magery, we can say that a creature can dispel a monster 20% of the time. Above 97 Magery, the difficulty is Challenging, which is between 20 - 40%. So even if a monster has 120 Magery, it will have 40% chance to dispel the RC, at most.

And if we compare it with an Energy Vortex: At around 97 Magery, the difficulty to dispel an EV shifts from Challenging to Optimal, so you have 40% chance to dispel an EV at 97 Magery.

Why do we regard rising colossus as the best summon in the game? One of the reasons is its high magic resistance (around 115 in your case, 120 for legendary mystics), so it resists dispel attempts more often. It also casts spells and uses special abilities (probably Armor Ignore), so it deals far more damage than two energy vortex can deal to an average monster.

To sum up, while it will be dispelled by the most powerful monsters at least 40% of the time, it will kill them while you sit and enjoy at most 60% of the time. It might not be the best pvm tactic for champs (I have very limited knowledge on tactic in champs, both pvm and pvp), but we've discussed the use of RCs for the Ancient Wyrms and Wyverns [Renowned] in these forums before, it is quite effective for both and many other powerful creatures.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
..I, like you, once desired my freedom from the limits placed on me. I watched in disgust as this world became engrossed with the preaching of virtue and none of the practice..


#11
Jaysu

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I appreciate your discussion of the facts, but it can be distilled into the following: RC gets dispelled easily and quickly by monsters of real importance, can't be controlled, and can't be healed. Dragons don't get dispelled, can be controlled, and can be healed.

Now I've never played a tamer, but I've seen tamers do some incredibly impressive stuff. And it leaves me wondering, frankly, why anyone would want mysticism over animal taming.

It almost feels to me like the colossus is very broken - in some cases it seems almost impermeably tough, and in other situations so fragile it's a waste of mana... It leaves me thinking that the build's usefulness is restricted to a set of a few things. But most of all, casting my top tier spell and having my summon immediately dismissed while the boss is focusing on something else... that ... just peeves me. :X

#12
Nimuaq

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And it leaves me wondering, frankly, why anyone would want mysticism over animal taming.


Because some particular creatures can be killed easily by using RCs only while they eat GDs alive. Most of the new creatures have area damage, so tamers also need to constantly cast greater heal on the dragon from a safe distance which requires quite a lot of mana regeneration.

Both templates have advantages and disadvantages, and powerful for some of the creatures while weak for others. You should select the template you like to play the most.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
..I, like you, once desired my freedom from the limits placed on me. I watched in disgust as this world became engrossed with the preaching of virtue and none of the practice..


#13
Jaysu

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Both templates have advantages and disadvantages, and powerful for some of the creatures while weak for others. You should select the template you like to play the most.


OK, since I'm new to the game there are clearly some perspectives that I'm missing.

Any examples to help me get a clearer picture?

#14
jack_handy

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Make another character with taming and decide for yourself

#15
Magister_Returns

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Here's a great example: In the current event arc, you won't see a single tamer trying to kill the Minions in Ter Mur. You will, however, see entire legions of players casting RC and tossing E-bolts.

For this event: Mystic > Tamer. Unless you've got a Bard Tamer, but then Bard Mystic > Bard Tamer for this example, too.

~M



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