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FORCE PVP

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41 replies to this topic

#21
Belanos

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The difference between pre-ren and fel, is that people in fel want to PVP, and want to fight back. When someone enters a game, only to be attacked, they inevitably stop having fun.


I think this is the basic issue. Before tram/fel, everyone was subject to attack. Now, everyone who wants to pvp will go to fel. So in the end, pvpers who complain about tram aren't complaining about the pvp, they're complaining that there aren't any easy targets for them anymore. Because that's all tram really did, was split the playerbase between pvpers and pvmers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

... it's pronounced 'fel-ookah', not 'fel-oosha' ...

#22
Zigglefriggit

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ok guys really? no one sees the ability to go to fel side? you have a choice of pvp in fel, and faction wars work on both sides also guild wars work on both sides! you have all the means to pvp if you stop complaining and have a good old fashion 6 yr long guild war. pvp was ruined by morons cheating and harassing others and people seem to think pvp is the only way to play. i choose to play this game because i can kill what ever i want. if i want pvm then i pvm if i want pvp i pvp if i want both i hunt in fel. all you pvp lovers out there still hunt in tremm don't you because i rarely see anyone in a fel dungeon unless it has to do with a champ spawn. re-awaken fel but hanging out in the towns and mining/hunting in the dungeons ect. yes many will stay in tremm but the temmies are scared by all the past morons who cheated. instead of complaining about the lack of pvp how about help the tremmies see that the cheating community is gone and help everyone by reporting cheaters and fighting against it. its up to the players to build the game as long as we dont let the dis-honorable ruin it again.

#23
Zigglefriggit

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ok sorry got excited there

#24
Mathena

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yes many will stay in tremm but the temmies are scared by all the past morons who cheated. instead of complaining about the lack of pvp how about help the tremmies see that the cheating community is gone and help everyone by reporting cheaters and fighting against it. its up to the players to build the game as long as we dont let the dis-honorable ruin it again.


Here in itself lies the problem!!!
Have you watched the general chat!
The same people with the low class attitude of griefing and harrassing others is still the main stream attitude in fel.

The ones with the "I killed you, you must be a noob" attitude is the majority and the ones that are really there for PvP are stifled by the teenage drama.

I remember being out in fel being the sentry for my hubby the miner (we were just learning to survive fel). Here comes the red :reye.

Okies...I do my best to defend and the miner gets away with the ore. Score one there. But I died to the red. :'(

He started looting and I was donning my grey death robe and started looking for the healer. I got ressed and got myself back together and here he comes again. :o

But instead of attacking me....says, want to know what you did wrong?

So, my hubby and I spent the next 2 hours being educated and learning techniques we had never used.

I think my hubby retained more than I did...and I still have the utmost respect for the pvp'er that killed me.

To me that is what PvP is about. Not standing over my corpse....screaming obsenitites at me. And there have been some good pvp'rs not expecting a death shot to come from the shadows...hehe
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#25
Anira Cuilwen

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Hell sorry - I cannot resist to say something about my experience as well.
I have been there, back in the days without Trammel. And we had a good working guild and everything was fine and people respected each others. So, yes, I truly know a good side of all that. But today it's simple not like that. Since I returned few years ago I met ONE and only ONE red in Felucca not being an arse and able to communicate in a mature manner.
I'm not going to Fel anymore if it isn't a must because anyone there I meet is just reskilling for their own pleasure. Noone of those ever even tried to explain anything, nor have they been willing to talk to me.
Another very sad experience I made is, excatly those idiots liked to create blue characters (been about a year ago) and lured non-PvP RPers to Felucca just for killing them as they hate RPers. (at least, that's what I was told)
Damn hell! Why the heck do they play such a game at all if they dilike roleplay?!
I notice, there is no upper limit in stpidness there. And yes, it's those idiots that ruined the game, no matter what EA or whoever did wrong or not. It's a fact that mmos live from their community and if you find a community of idiot reskilling PKers it's just no fun for anyone. I love trammel and I am happy to be able to avoid that scum.
People do not show respect towards each other, ruin others roleplay and then they wonder why people leave and complain about things they would like to be the cause for that. Hell! Grab your own noses and bugger of.
I am not judging anyone in specific but I just can't see a chance for an open PvP system anymore.
Most freeshards solved that problem by just keeping the idiots out or deleting them on first incident report. If there was not the RP community on Europa I love and got friends in I would have left a thousand times already again.

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#26
Ashlarrr

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I think it's a bad idea. A felucca only environment will just result in two groups of people: sheep and wolves. The PKers go after the easy targets because they like killing people and most of the sheep who don't want to PvP get tired of it and leave 'cause it's not the play style they want (and thet's before we even get to the smacktalking and griefing side of things).

I think the idea of a couple of felucca-only shards would have been better as suggested above. Bit late now though!
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#27
Gwen Irima

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Had it been only felucca i would have problably not played uo so long (10 yrs now), i dont like the pvp in uo. I do like pvp in other games :)

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#28
Corvak

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I think it's a bad idea. A felucca only environment will just result in two groups of people: sheep and wolves. The PKers go after the easy targets because they like killing people and most of the sheep who don't want to PvP get tired of it and leave 'cause it's not the play style they want (and thet's before we even get to the smacktalking and griefing side of things).

I think the idea of a couple of felucca-only shards would have been better as suggested above. Bit late now though!


One of the "lessons" UO taught new MMO developers, is PvP servers, and the "language barrier" that is imposed to remove all the smacktalk. Alliance and Horde cant talk to each other in WoW...Chaos and Order can't talk to each other in WAR. Free Peoples and Monsters can't talk to each other in LOTRO...And I think the factions of DAOC are the same way.

#29
Zigglefriggit

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I still say create a 6 yr long guild war one named good and one named evil (or something along the lines) and if you are in that guild war you will be in a shard wide pvp setting. Only rules would be no smack talk and no cheating/harassment of any kind. Guild wars have similar rules to the pvp in the Shard of the Dead or open fel correct?

#30
Anira Cuilwen

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Well there are few things he guildwar does not solve. Like the ability to block passages. Remember, you need to push through people in Felucca and use this for strategy. Well.. but I guess the ones wanting PvP don't care about those things anyways.

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#31
Thorodin

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I think this is the basic issue. Before tram/fel, everyone was subject to attack. Now, everyone who wants to pvp will go to fel. So in the end, pvpers who complain about tram aren't complaining about the pvp, they're complaining that there aren't any easy targets for them anymore. Because that's all tram really did, was split the playerbase between pvpers and pvmers.

^^^ This!^^^ I am not into pvp. I've heard one good argument for forced pvp shards. That is the idea that it is more realistic, that people in midevil times could be attacked by enemies at any moment. However the idea relies on the idea that everyone roleplays and plays 'fair'. Even in midevil times, or the old west or whatever you want to use as a comparison, the bad guys and evil folk didn't (or in fantasy fiction, don't) go around killing everyone they come across and call them 'noobs'. Sure if everyone played by the fair roleplaying rules it could be fun to be in danger of ambush. Crafters could pay merc warriors to escort and protect them between travelling between towns. Brigands could wait in ambush and demand payment and only attack if they were not paid a toll. Of course the peasant they attack could turn out to be a GM warrior wearing Valorite imbued platemail under their robes. I would enjoy playing in that world, but it would be impossible to get everyone to play 'fair' in that environment and no matter what some punk is going to kill everyone for no reason, call me a noob and teabag my corpse. No thanks!

#32
Gnomy

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The problem lies with the people playing in Fel these days.

The mental age has dropped incredible since I pvped.

Also.. so many in the thread assume that before trammel everyone got pked. First of all there werent that many pks then and pvpers they were busy with order/chaos or guild wars.

Imo it was a good harmony in the game before trammel. Now we got all trash in fel, and all bunnies in Tram... :D

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#33
Belanos

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bunnies ftw
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

... it's pronounced 'fel-ookah', not 'fel-oosha' ...

#34
Venomusmc

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well I do wish there was only fel... but in the sense of it being if the game worked "properly".
Now Im not a roleplayer however I'm also not into talking smack all day long and/or just being a prick. So I believe trammal is justified and needed. Most people, not all, that advocate some need for fel only rules are the same people that are running scripts, cheats, whatever and talking all sorts of crap for killing you.
I do play... I play and am often in Fel. I get pked. It's not a big deal to me. Someone kills me and tells me how worthless I am... Not really hurting my feelings. I understand how people are egomaniacs especially when giving the awesome power of a keyboard haha.
So I believe they can't force PVP. There is a good balance. Power Scrolls for example... only way to get them yourself is fel champ spawns... there are other ways for you to obtain them but not the original way. I think thats the beauty of UO. Things are NOT soulbound.

#35
GregorLassant

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I think the problem lies in what an earlier poster brought up. Richard Garriott was a virtue ethics idealist, whom I feel incorrectly assumed that such principles would translate well into an online game format. The entire idea is that certain things are "right", that you don't need a government, deity, or community to tell you they're right, and that the "right" and correct, or virtuous, action comes from within. The concept, I suppose, was that the antisocial elements would be ostracized, and that because of their lack of internal ethics would be unable to cooperate with one another to grief other people. I think there was also some assuption that the good would gather together in common cause, rather than just quit the game when they got humiliated.

The fact is that social ostracism hurts a lot less when you have a blue mule to interact with the world and deliver the benefits directly to your door. Character death doesn't hurt griefers nearly as bad as their targets, who by definition deliver the most pleasure to the griefer if they have a much harder time replacing resources than the griefer( ie new players or casual players). Its also easier when you can view your target as not a human being, especially if the griefer is an individual who has problems with empathy in the first place ( perhaps this is why PvP in general is less popular in RP circles).

The fact is, as a primary PvM player, I was more "successful" at UO after trammel. Regardless of what people say about pre-ren UO, just looking at Felucca vs. Trammel will tell you that most of the player base wants it to be exactly like it is. This isn't a new thing, if I recall, people were chomping at the bit to get into Trammel when it opened.

That being said, there are a lot of reasons to have a great deal of the game space, if not all, open to non consensual PvP. For one thing, there *were* some groups that formed very effective security forces to deal with aggressive PvPers on my shard ( For instance, the Yew Militia). This provided an entire genre of gameplay, and a market for services. Another thing is that it can be argued that anti grief measures can actually facillitate grief. Everyone knows that a blue can run into a fire field and flag an otherwise non agressive player. I also have a personal experience as follows:

The most emotionally disturbing incident I had with UO involving other players was *not* at the hands of a PvP player, but rather someone who was probably a PvM player whom utilized a flagging tool to, in my opinion, grief me as a player. This was many years ago, and at the time I had saved up money to buy a boat, which was the first thing I really wanted in UO. Well, this was when the access to the boat was entirely controlled by the keys. I had lost one key, and had not yet duplicated the other one, when I accidentally opened the corpse of a blue player inside a guard zone. Well, I got guard wacked, and the player nearby took my keys to the boat. Well, after explaining that this was a mistake, this player proceeded to taunt me about the key, tell me I was stupid for not duplicating it, and that I deserved what happened because I was a "looter". The fact that now, being older, I realize that this is probably someone who was badly burned by a thief, and was projecting that thief they couldn't get back at onto me, and that I can now afford many boats, didn't really help at the time. It was humiliating, and the hell of it was that there was no way I could get back at this person without flagging myself and looking like the "bad guy". Game or not, for a long time I hoped this woman ( for some reason I got the impression that this was an actual female player) died in a fire.

On the other hand, while I've had some bad experiences with red PvPers, I've also had some of the very best gameplay when I was assaulted by them. I was jumped in Covetous one day with my axe fighter, and while I could have gotten away, I proceded to go at it with this guy for about an hour. Finally, he got the last hit in on me, but it was so close that he died from poison shortly after ( from a scorpion no less). We agreed to heal, come back, and get our stuff. He honored this, and we talked for a while about how much of a good fight that was.

With honest red PvP, you at least have the tools, potentially, to deal with the problem. I can honestly see both sides of the argument. As far as being taunted by some punk who got the jump on you, recognize that he had every advantage and that his "skill" is entirely in his head. Drink some concrete and harden up, grab your friends, catch him out without his buddies and kill him, then its your turn to tell him how nice his mother was to you last week. Make sure you cut up his corpse just to add to the drama. However, the fact is that UO attracts a much larger player base who just does not want to have anything to do with risk from other players, and doesn't have the mindset needed for open PvP. Trammel probably needs to exist, but I'm glad they have rewards only availible in Felucca. Personally, I feel they should increase the resource rewards even further, as it would provide more incentive to go there, and give the bandits something to prey on, and the heroes someone to fight.

#36
Thorynn

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I can't stand pvp. If forced to do it, I would Just play something else. It's incredibly annoying to try and enjoy the game when you get jumped by a group of 9 year olds trying to sound tough with every other word being no more than bunch of asterics and symbols. Felicia exists for the pvp types, and world of Warcraft exists for the 9 year olds, leave Trammel for the mature Pvm community.

#37
Magister_Returns

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*An Corp Thread*

~M

#38
Oldplayer

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Look I have played UO for many years , many years ago there was a bug involving the gates in moonglow that allowed you to walk invised until you attack some one. They took it out of the game and put it back in years later as a skill , people hated it as a bug they hate it now as a skill .

Overpowered bows and weapons that deal massive damage and instant death also taken out of the game years ago .

At one time you could drink potions while using a bow then that was patched. Now they are called balanced bows .

Stat loss of any kind even momentarily people freaking hate it , they play factions for the items and for the fact you take no counts killing opposite faction.

Lake Superior is totally dead I moved to Atlantic and guess what the same stuff that killed Lake Superior will kill it too .


People hate aggitators that camp the healers so they can ress kill you over and over .

The reason UO is collapsing and has been is because the people that have run it for years do not moderate effectively behavior that's just plain wrong in any content.

Super powered weapons stat loss in factions , god items for the few that play factions grievers cheats and hacks .

Go to yew gate on Atlantic ban the guys that have alts accounts set up on the healers for auto attack with a bow .

Get your minds off of instant death stat loss and crap scattered all over the map to block you when you try to run.


All of this affects only one kind of player , that is the decent players you have facilitated grief in your patches for they suit more the cheats than anyone else .

Get back to some basics , make fel no insurance zone a big sign pops up and says if you go through this gate and die you'll get dry looted.

It will give a total rebirth to crafting , insurance an trammel were the beginning of the decline .

You guys who do the Dev work are out of touch too .... there was a problem with housing right ? So what do you do instead of adding more lands for more people and houses you destroy the houses . Well now we do not have a big housing problem now do we . We lost alot of players too because they log in and there house was gone and what was left if anything was was on the ground .

#39
Dargrimm

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Belanos and GregorLassant nailed it.

#40
Eslake

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*goes in to see the boss*
Me : Hey boss! I have a Great Idea!
Boss : What is it?
Me : You know how we make those flat widgets that nobody buys?
Boss : Yes.
Me : You know how we make those round widgets that everyone buys?
Boss : Yes.
Me : Lets stop making the round widgets, so everyone has to buy the flat ones.


After we got Tram, and new players would start In Tram.. they mentioned on their Official Forums (still on the website back then) that less than 5% of all played time was spent in Felucca.

Now consider that MORE than 50% of all houses were in Fel (because of the stricter house placement rules) and the message is pretty clear. Very few want PvP.

They tried to balance the server load - Bribing players to go to Fel. They added factions with special gear, they doubled resources and fame gains, even Power/Stat scrolls.

The net change? A few more lumberjacks and miners, and the PvP guilds (who were already in Felucca) got rich dominating the Powerscroll market.