Jump to content

Welcome to Ultima Online Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account

Welcome to UOForums

If not already a member, take a moment to join our awesome community. It is free to sign up and there are no ads.

 

When you click on CREATE ACCOUNT, the sign up form will appear at the bottom of the forum.

 

If you have issues, like not receiving a validation email. Then please contact us by email help@uoforums.com and we will help you get set up.

 

If you wish to contact us about our site for other reasons, then please contact us by using the contact form in top right corner of the forum


Photo

Should we allow the sale of items for RL$?

- - - - - items rl$ sale

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
42 replies to this topic

#21
Adam

Adam

    Former Owner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

If EA/Mythic allows the sale of in game things for real money, I don't see why forums supporting the community should not.


I agree
But the general impression I'm getting from conversations with Jeremy is they DON'T like people selling stuff for RL$, but for some reason, decided not to change the policy on it.
No idea what the reason is for that, I can only assume it's because they don't care to much about UO to bother changing stuff.
They have made it quite clear they dislike brokers though, heh, especially "Parkay".

It's illegal in DAOC to sell items and stuff (Except for whole accounts), and i'd imagine so for Warhammer to (when it's finally released)

#22
Hunter

Hunter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
No doubt inflation has hit UO in an unbelievable way – I remember once upon a time when I had 30k in the bank and thought I was rich. I don’t like the selling of gold for real money but now that it has started I don’t believe there is anyway to stop it. Unfortunately this has driven away a lot of the old time players that made this game great and is why UO no longer attracts new players. But like many of you I have spent a lot of years playing and working on my characters and would not like to see it end but I do believe this is a cancer that will eventually kill the game.

#23
Adam

Adam

    Former Owner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
I was trying to remember a URL for a site which was setup to explain why gold sales are bad, it's an interesting read.

http://www.nogold.org/why/

Why is gold selling bad?

- SPORTSMANSHIP

MMORPGs are games, and most players expect their peers to treat them as such. Purchasing gold, items, and accounts from businesses detracts from the nature of the game. MMORPGs are hugely competitive (where players compete for levels, items, honor, and status). When players with large bank accounts simply buy their way to the top, it ruins that element of the game for everyone else.

- INFLATION

So, you are playing your MMORPG. You kill a rat with your mightysword, and loot 2 gold off its lifeless body. You shout for joy,and continue on playing.
Why were you happy? Because gold means something in your game. You use it to purchase armor, weapons, mounts, housing, and raw materialsfor your trade skills. You form guilds, ride on public transportation, and participate in events with it. People work to obtain gold in MMORPGs because it is worth something to them.
Gold farming (and the selling of it) creates inflation. Thinkof your MMORPG’s economy as a pool of water (the money). Water is constantly being put in it while water is constantly being drained out at the same time. If there is too much water being put in (the gold farmers) and not enough water being drained out (costs from durability and mounts etc.) then the water will keep rising.
Drains for money in the economy (or money-sinks) are designed to keep the amount of money level. Gold farmers do not play by the intended design however. They don’t spend money on armor, weapons, mounts,housing, or raw materials. They just add TONS of new money to the MMORPG economy.
This means that the value of your 2 gold drops. The gold farming artifically inflates the in game economy, forcing higher prices for items and ruining the ability for people who do not grind or buy gold to purchase items.
This leads to a cycle. Players must kill more and more rats to buy the same item, because gold buyers have bid up the price for said item. These players become frustrated with grinding gold, and are more likely to purchase gold from a seller for real money. This leads to further inflation.

- SWEATSHOPS

Where did you think gold sellers get their labor? Gold wholesalers employ hundreds of employees in third world countries. These laborers work 10-12 hour shifts for pennies an hour. The wholesaler then sells the gold to a major reseller in North American or Europe. Both the wholesaler and reseller in turn make massive profits. They exploit workers and MMORPG economies for a quick buck. Read an excellent article on 1up.com for more details on how the industry operates.

#24
Hunter

Hunter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
Unbelievable -- I had no idea it ran so deep. Thanks for the information.


#25
kitiara

kitiara

    Polar Bear Queen

  • Members
  • 3,769 posts
  • LocationHarrisonburg, VA
I enjoy having the option to buy UO goods for cash. I see it like this: I'm old. I work more than full time. I don't have 20 hours a week to play UO and farm gold. I don't have 10 hours per week. I'm lucky if I have 2. I do, however, have cash, because of that thing that prevents me from having much time for UO (aka, my job).

Much of the good stuff in-game requires many hours of gold-farming to afford. I exchange the cash that I have time to earn at work for gold that I don't have time to earn in-game.

And then I buy all the lovely things I don't have time to grind in-game for. And I enjoy them. And that's why I play UO in the first place - to enjoy myself.

#26
Pickaxe Pete

Pickaxe Pete

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 87 posts
I understand both sides of the debate. I've read about this issue all over the Internet for years, referring to many games from Diablo I over a decade ago to WoW. I run vendors and make plenty of gold - no need to buy any. However, I may decide to sell some in the future and UOForums is just about the only avenue of advertising left to the 'small guy' like me.

Any time there is an opportunity to make money, humans will push it to the max. Like the guy that made $250,000 in a year selling UO gold during the early duping. We all wish we were him - making a quarter mil without breaking any enforceable laws. Some may even praise it as an innovative business move. Or the Eastern sweatshops with their probably kindly taskmasters. Would the legions of young men thusly employed hold better paying jobs if the industry did not exist?

So, I am undecided.

#27
Riboflavin

Riboflavin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 548 posts

Any time there is an opportunity to make money, humans will push it to the max. Like the guy that made $250,000 in a year selling UO gold during the early duping. We all wish we were him

Sorry, wrong there.

- making a quarter mil without breaking any enforceable laws. Some may even praise it as an innovative business move.


Who would this be? I mean...praise?...innovative? To dupe, cheat and finding loop holes? Very innovative, right.

Or the Eastern sweatshops with their probably kindly taskmasters.

Aye, kindly... sorry, is this meant ironically?

Would the legions of young men thusly employed hold better paying jobs if the industry did not exist?

This is not really an excuse. Then you could also condone e.g. the most dangerous mines in China. Where every year thousands pitmen die by explosions, collapses of tunnels, etc. "But at least the other ten thousands have work and what would they do if these mines didn't exist." Of course, the "gamers" aren't exposed to such drastic consequences. But nevertheless they are exploited. They are not fairly paid, don't have insurance, are fired at good/bad will, they might neglect their school, etc. And one does support these poor conditions for the workers by buying gold/items etc.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#28
CescoAiel

CescoAiel

    Sir Lir, Ex-UO gamer "Sé do Beatha, mo chara"

  • Members
  • 1,339 posts
  • LocationNew Britannia
I agree with both sides of the discussion, but went for "yes" in the end...
Many people do not have lots of time to play... I have hardly been on-line the last 3 months... But I do still pay my fees, and want to enjoy myself when I do get to go on-line... Having to worry about insurance and getting gold, etc. is not what I call fun...

I have been blessed by kind players when I just started... I was given a mount, full spell book, full rune book, a boat and enough gold to build me a 18x18 house on a nice spot near Vesper, which too I did not even need to scout for myself! I have made more money by keeping my eyes open and buying cheap artifacts at non-Luna vendors and selling them on auctions, etc.
But I still do not have enough to buy me (for instance) a Crimson Cincture...

Should I run out of gold, I would certainly consider buying for RL$... But I would most likely attempt to buy from players on the trade forum here rather than one of the web-brokers...

But OTOH, if I want (for instance) a Charger, and I can get one cheaper at a web-broker than a token would cost me at UO's code-shop, guess who will get my money?...

It is all a matter of economics...
BD Sig New

Bodhbh Dearg - Beginning avatar - Shroud of the Avatar
Sir Lir - Mage-Tamer - Council Sojourner - Avatars of Virtue
Lugh Allcrafted - Beginning Crafter - United Order of Virtue
Aoife - New-born Necro-Mage - Council Sojourner - Avatars of Virtue
Cú Chulainn- Paladin - Avatars of Virtue


#29
EveLAntagonist

EveLAntagonist

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts

I agree
But the general impression I'm getting from conversations with Jeremy is they DON'T like people selling stuff for RL$, but for some reason, decided not to change the policy on it.
No idea what the reason is for that, I can only assume it's because they don't care to much about UO to bother changing stuff.
They have made it quite clear they dislike brokers though, heh, especially "Parkay".

It's illegal in DAOC to sell items and stuff (Except for whole accounts), and i'd imagine so for Warhammer to (when it's finally released)


Keep in mind EA collects companies like they were Pokemon. The no item/gold sales for DAoC was a Mythic policy from when it was it's own entity. Early on the creator of UO thought the idea of real money transactions was cool and didn't want to stop it, Jeremy and the current powers that be with the anti-selling mentality didn't show up until much later. I imagine Warhammer will depend on how things ended up in the restructuring but most likely will have a similar policy to DAoC.

Personally I feel it's a necessary part of MMO's. There is certainly a demand for it even in games that don't permit it. Saying 'no you can't do it' doesn't make it go away. It just makes it hide. If you don't like the idea of buying or selling things for $ then simply don't participate. I think the Stratics change was mainly due to them being a network covering several games where it wasn't allowed, and since this is UOForums not (FillInTheBlank)Forums I say allow it until the makers of the game change their own policy.

#30
Pitr

Pitr

    GRI Cadet

  • Members
  • 1,662 posts
I believe that being able to change uo gold into real $ is the reason we have fellucan guilds cheating and doing their best to control the shards... same reason powerscrolls cant ever be a Ils/tokuno spawn... it would ruin their money making... and we dont want that...

Much more fun to yell... stop the speedhacking, cheating, scritping!

While we yell... they profit.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#31
The Dread Qu

The Dread Qu

    Magik Keeper

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

I agree
But the general impression I'm getting from conversations with Jeremy is they DON'T like people selling stuff for RL$, but for some reason, decided not to change the policy on it.


LoL Thats because changing a policy requires money/lawyers in the first place not to mention I bet a few employees of EA use third party programs (within their rights) to generate absurd amounts of flux in our economy...

Its not chump change these people make about $500.00+ a week and its TAX free!
Evil Is Just a Point of View
~One Circle ~One Soul

#32
Lady Lynn

Lady Lynn

    Fire & Ice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 28 posts
'Should we allow the sale of UO items for $?'

If that is referring to this forum having a 'classified' section for uo items for rl $s then no, it's not a retail business.

But the selling of virtual items in general for rl $s, I don't see anything wrong with that. Many people don't have the large amount of time needed to build up their resource supply, gold supply or to go hunting, hoping their luck will change in regards to the rare drops of items.

My hubby and I have 3 active vet accounts that we don't have the time to play anymore since we now have a toddler and baby and it's not really worth it to continue paying for those accounts but we don't want to see them go to waste either.

Oh, but wait... again that is rl $s for virtual items...
UO FORUMS is THE source for Quality Information and Conversation.

#33
teeshy

teeshy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 85 posts
I'd actually love to be able to make a "living" off selling virtual items =P I mean seriously, if I can play the game, and *enjoy* playing it as much as I do, and if I could ever figure out how to make a lot of gold doing it, then selling the gold for RL $ - I'd be in heaven! =D

#34
Pitr

Pitr

    GRI Cadet

  • Members
  • 1,662 posts
Just join any established fel guild with powerscroll payouts...
Spawn like a madman...
Use two computers... (second one for protector)
Solo the champs...
SELL SELL!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#35
Pickaxe Pete

Pickaxe Pete

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 87 posts

Of course, the "gamers" aren't exposed to such drastic consequences. But nevertheless they are exploited. They are not fairly paid, don't have insurance, are fired at good/bad will, they might neglect their school, etc. And one does support these poor conditions for the workers by buying gold/items etc.


You seem to know a lot more about this than I do! So... how much are you making exactly? :D

#36
Riboflavin

Riboflavin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 548 posts

You seem to know a lot more about this than I do! So... how much are you making exactly? :D

Sorry Pete, if you missed the point. But I was opposing the gold-farming-shops.

Actually, did you read the article? Working the whole day for a very low income. Even if considering the low costs in these states.

So how could you get to your following assumption?

Or the Eastern sweatshops with their probably kindly taskmasters.

Any remarks to the other arguments?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

#37
Arquestian

Arquestian

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 153 posts
Many people that actually farm money and items in games work for themselves. In Korea they have lots of internet cafes where gamers work during the day collecting items and money to sell to sites, and the evenings they actually play.

Not all people who sell to companies are under horrible conditions, not even most.

#38
Anrymeel

Anrymeel

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
I have bought things on those sites as i just never seem to be able to afford them otherwise as im sure many will attest to - SO- maybe making things more affordable in game or by banning sale IRL will reduce what things go for in game? the prices of things irl does affect what u can sell for in game so i do think it has a negative affect.

#39
Mina_Lino

Mina_Lino

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts
I voted yes...

Because i'm planning to leave UO and sell ALL my belongings for real cash.

I played UO for many years...had a 2.5 year break...came back with big hope...and got REALLY disappointed.

So now i'm leaving UO for good.
And i would like to at least enjoy irl of what i spent so many UO hours on to have what i have in UO.

UO has lost his charm to me...

So i'd rather sell it all and buy something useful irl.

Posted Image


ICQ : 354-186-996 (Lino)
ICQ : 436-088-756 (Mina)


#40
Ferenhelm

Ferenhelm

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 926 posts
I just don't think it is very ethical to use someone elses artistic creation to make money without a proper code of reimbursment to the person whos artistic creation is being exploited.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: items, rl$, sale