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Should we allow the sale of items for RL$?

- - - - - items rl$ sale

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42 replies to this topic

#1
Adam

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I don't honestly know if there's a good arguement on whether selling items for $ effects the game in a positive or negative way, but the general feeling from Mythic is they don't like it, nor do they like brokers, heh.

So here's a poll to decide once and for all whether we should continue to allow the sale of items for RL$ or not.

#2
Gnomy

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voted no.. because ive never liked rl cash for items.

why?

Its just a *** game.. and i think in a game one has to earn the items you got..

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#3
Solidchrome

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People do buy virtual items for cash just like any other commodity.

As long as theres commission involved, why not?

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#4
Gwendar

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Selling items for cash permits folks leaving the game to sell their houses, posessions and accounts.

It gives a value to uo gold like the backing of any rl currency.

It lets folks pay for their gametime and other items like soulstones with uo gold and lets folks with rl money and little time to play get the items that they want. ie, a friend wants a souldtone on siege but has little cash. I can buy the code from UO, sell it to him for gold, then sell the gold to recoop my expenses. I do this a favor and make no profit, am only a middle man. However, in order to do this the gold needs a value in rl. Without a value on gold the transactions can't take place.

I don't think the problems with the UO economy are caused directly by rl cash transactions. They are caused by folks making a business of producing things by illegal means.

#5
Riboflavin

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I don't think the problems with the UO economy are caused directly by rl cash transactions. They are caused by folks making a business of producing things by illegal means.


Well, imho the possibility to make rl cash out of item sell (would it be in UO or any other game) encourage people to exploit the system, e.g. cheating and fabricating fakes. In that way, the UO economy is effected directly, indeed. :(
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#6
Gwendar

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Well, imho the possibility to make rl cash out of item sell (would it be in UO or any other game) encourage people to exploit the system, e.g. cheating and fabricating fakes. In that way, the UO economy is effected directly, indeed. :(



Money was invented to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. Should money be outlawed because there are counterfiiters?

#7
Farsight

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Tough questions here.

I spearheaded a campaign to attempt to make the sale of in game things for real money illegal. We won the battle (the property under dispute was taken care of), but lost the war. If EA/Mythic allows the sale of in game things for real money, I don't see why forums supporting the community should not.

I won't use real money for fake things myself, but I do know people who do that in order to save time or effort. And they're as much (or more) a part of the community than I am.

#8
buddy lee

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don't matter to me either way

#9
Riboflavin

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Money was invented to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. Should money be outlawed because there are counterfiiters?


Sorry, Gwendar?

Actually, I was arguing/opposing your statement that rl cash wouldn't have any direct effect on the uo economy. While it has, imho.
I did not give any opinion about money itself. Whether money in itself is good or bad. Which is neither the case, of course.
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#10
Lycanthropy

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Well, Ultima Online is a "service." Think about it like this...if you rent your ISP, Verizon, Comcast, whatever, and you pay X dollars a month to use the Internet, does that give you the right to manipulate and sell anything you find while you are on the Internet? Of course not, there are copyright laws against that. But one day, E-Bay and Napster made us all feel "entitled." Selling items from UO for real life currency is no different than International sports gambling; if the people want something, whether it is right or wrong, they will produce a market, and cheat if necesarry to support that market, or control it. The entitlement some people feel, after having played UO for a long time, does not exist, because, for anyone who actually read the fine print, it should be known that we do not own anything in UO, we are merely renters of virtual space.

What we have seen, of course, is an inability for organizations such as EA to police the sale of items, and thus the result of selling items directly from the company, in the way of uogamecodes.com and stuff like that. Even the NFL has worked to secure their spot in the trade of scalped tickets online. I guess my point is, I feel the sale of UO stuff for real life money is against the law, and furthermore, "cheating," by gaming standards, but I also understand that if enough people want it, IE, do not have the time, patience, or skill to obtain such things, the market will be created, and kept by those who wish to make a business of the market, and if let be, the organizations in charge will have nothing left to do but to try and legitimize the market by stepping in and participating in the market themselves. This seems to be the trend in our Internet age.

#11
Tancred RedStar

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At the very least, since EA/Mythic does sell a few game items such as tokens(and Tokuno dyes on the UO Japan website), they should set up an affiliate program. It would at least allow some fan sites the means to make a (very)modest income and potentially boost income for EA/Mythic. Perhaps over time they would see the benefit for broadening their range of game items, but of course they need to avoid outright selling of gold(or do they?). If EA/Mythic ever got more into selling items on their own, it would get rid of brokers and at least some of the cheaters almost overnight.

#12
Silverfoot

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Well the issue is just complex. Folks have strong feelings on both sides. I've never had a problem with folks spending $$ on a hobby. I've done it for resources. I never will make any apologies for it. I think it does provide a service.

But I did vote no here. Because basically what's at stake is more important IMHO. I would never want anyone banned for any amount of time because folks were directed to our site.

Besides I'm sure if folks want to buy/sell for $$, they will find a way to do it behind the scenes.

Just my 2 gold pieces ( or 0.000002 cents at todays gold exchange rate) :X

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#13
Snugglebunny

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I agree with se'an

Well rub butter on my beautiful butt and call me a croissant!


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#14
Tovladian Soltyr

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Ok well I'm the "Other" in this poll. I've got split views on this whole situation cause honestly it's in essence a good vs evil battle :(. Ok allow me to explain......

The Bad: When you place a real life cash value to anything, greed becomes a factor. Just like when the very first legal tender was created...the very first gold shilling or whatever back 1,000's of years ago the first thief was on the very same day. Greed will get it's hand into everything that possesses value plain and simple. So now a Pixel has a Legal Tender value in the real world, Greed catches wind of this, You mean I can make money off of an imaginary item? THAT'S BRILLIANT!!!, this can be my proverbial "Magic Bean". Now people start trying to make a living by selling their items/gold in game. However now the thieves catch wind of it and start to find exploits/hacks/dupes/Macro-ing....Ways to "Steal the Pixels" in essence. So there for putting that real life value to an imaginary item brought in the world of greed and corruption cause lets face it, Money corrupts no matter what aspect it's in. Basically knowing that real life money can be made for playing a game, it invites the hackers/exploiters to come to the game and check it out to see how easy it is to make the buck off the game.


The Good: Well I have never personally purchased gold or items for any real life cash. But I will admit that I have sold some of my in game items/gold to some friends that have very little time to actually play, at one time I even had a deal with a friend that if I was able to provide him with X amount of gold and resources per month that he would buy me a 60 day game time code. Which basically I would spend 1 full week collecting the gold and resources needed and then I would enjoy the rest of my 3 weeks in game playing. We made this deal cause he didn't have the time to devote to collecting this stuff himself cause he often worked 65 to 70 hours per week but the time he did get to play he didn't want to spend it constantly farming resources mainly. The made it to where I could stay in game when I was out of work a few years ago. I have also recently sold some items to help pay for a real life utility here and there or to help put some food in my kids bellies right now since I'm currently out of work again.

NOTE: Everything I get in game I get manually, all the gold, all the resources, everything. I'm one of those true hard working people in game that everything you see me have was done legit. I have UO Assist on my accounts but I very rarely ever turn it on, I'm just use to doing everything by hand the hard way lol.

Ok Onward to another bit of good. Back in 2005 when Hurricane Katrina hit with the help of Sosaria Live (An Old UO Radio Station before the time of Whispering Rose) an organization called Gamers Charity was able to raise RL $ by selling in game gold that was collected during events held shard wide across UO. I know Legends raised a good bit of the gold collected cause mine and my GF's auction auction house did a charity auction where the people of legends donated there in game items to be sold off for in game gold and then that gold sold off for RL cash to be then donated to a Hurricane Katrina relief fund. To my knowledge our auction house was the only one that donated 100% of the gold made to the charity (That's really irrelevant I just wanted to pat myself on the back :P). So there some good that came out of the ability to sell gold for $$$.

Another Good instance was when a dear friend of mine had to quit the game due to real life issues. It was 2 weeks b4 Christmas and all his money was already spent for that month on gifts and such when his landlord came to him and said "I'm selling the house and you have 2 weeks to get out".

Wow, I know 2 weeks b4 Xmas, what scumlord not landlord. Anyway he needed a way to make money and fast, he needed enough to be able to put with what he had for Deposit and first month rent on the place he had found, then also needed money for moving truck, etc....

Well he owned Runes To Go on Legends which was the best and most complete Rune Library on Legends and it was easily accessible cause it was right inside the walls of Luna. He sold off many of it in game items at an Auction we held for him (Free of charge btw *Nother pat on the back* :P) to help him raise gold to be sold. He also sold his luna house + Rune library to the highest RL cash bidder. If it weren't for him being able to do this him and his family would be celebrating Xmas out on the street :/. So this is another case of Gold/Items being able to be sold for RL $$$ that was a good thing.

So I guess in essence this is what it boils down to....

Pros
People can make money to help themselves in tough situations
It's another form of collecting for a Charity

Cons
It opens the flood gates for Hackers/Exploiters/Cheaters
It messes with the in game economy (Allowing the gold sellers to set how much gold is worth there fore making it worth less or more depending on the $ value attached to it).

All in all no game will every be able to stop it 100%, the world can't even stop the black market. So honestly how do you expect the game companies to be able to stop a in game black market from starting?

It boils down to, if there's a will there's a way. As long as Greed exists in the world then there will be people trying to make a buck off of any and everything they can.
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#15
Nydon

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Well the issue is just complex. Folks have strong feelings on both sides. I've never had a problem with folks spending $$ on a hobby. I've done it for resources. I never will make any apologies for it. I think it does provide a service.

But I did vote no here. Because basically what's at stake is more important IMHO. I would never want anyone banned for any amount of time because folks were directed to our site.

Besides I'm sure if folks want to buy/sell for $$, they will find a way to do it behind the scenes.

Just my 2 gold pieces ( or 0.000002 cents at todays gold exchange rate) :X


this is exactly how i feel about it , i have bought gold in the past , and have no problem with it , but if it means not being able to mention this site , then i vote no , i wouldnt want it advertised here . anyone can google it and find 50 sites in seconds if thats what they want .
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#16
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I agree Nydon. I think if anyone wants to find something to buy, it will be rather easy using google. If anything, Trader websites will now make sure its easier to find them using search features, and probably will make their websites a little bit user friendly.

Well rub butter on my beautiful butt and call me a croissant!


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#17
Cabe Bedlam

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There are pros and cons for it either way. People who will exploit the system will do so whether they make it legal or illegal, that's just the type of people they are. Really, it's kinda like making marijuana legal...

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#18
Farsight

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If sale for real life money does get forbidden, then nothing will change except for the sell posts will simply say "Contact me for price". So in essence, nothing will change. People will still sell for real money and will just work around the system.

(And to satisfy my curiosity, I like to see what people are selling for what price. I still wouldn't buy or sell, but I do like to look.)

So now I'm actually going to vote on the poll.

#19
Adam

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If sale for real life money does get forbidden, then nothing will change except for the sell posts will simply say "Contact me for price". So in essence, nothing will change. People will still sell for real money and will just work around the system.


Definatly
But at least we can advertise our site in game, without people being suspended/banned.
Granted we've already been given the approval, but it'd only take a rogue GM to see a for sale post and ban a person.
But we'll see how the voting goes.

#20
Tabbitha

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If EA/Mythic allows the sale of in game things for real money, I don't see why forums supporting the community should not.


My take on it exactly

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