Jump to content

Welcome to Ultima Online Forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. This message will be removed once you have signed in.
Login to Account Create an Account

Welcome to UOForums

If not already a member, take a moment to join our awesome community. It is free to sign up and there are no ads.

 

When you click on CREATE ACCOUNT, the sign up form will appear at the bottom of the forum.

 

If you have issues, like not receiving a validation email. Then please contact us by email help@uoforums.com and we will help you get set up.

 

If you wish to contact us about our site for other reasons, then please contact us by using the contact form in top right corner of the forum


Photo

Trammel

- - - - - trammel

  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#41
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts

Sorry but there are many more tamers than people that care about factions. Factions aren't barely existant because they are bugged.


Hence:

If EA actually bothered to spend their time fixing existing bugs and design issues,


They are barely existant because no one cares about them to begin with. Felucca is already dead and even fewer players play factions, so adding something like greater dragons interests a huge segment of the population and working with factions interests a very small part of the population. As a developer its better to keep the majority happy at the expense of the minority.


Uhhh, no. Factions were huge, but the bugs (as stated) and other issues made it not so fun.

Where'd you get your info for there being more tamers than people that want to play factions?

Since when are tamers the majority? I'm sure there are more people out there screaming to fix thief nerfs than there are tamers looking for greater dragons.

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#42
galefan2004

galefan2004

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 99 posts

Uhhh, no. Factions were huge, but the bugs (as stated) and other issues made it not so fun.

Where'd you get your info for there being more tamers than people that want to play factions?

Since when are tamers the majority? I'm sure there are more people out there screaming to fix thief nerfs than there are tamers looking for greater dragons.


I've played both sides for a long time. You will find many more people in Trammel than Felucca period. Factions was never huge it was just active. About 50-100 people per shard were into factions (being generous) in there hay day. At the same time there were about 10-20 Trammel based pve guilds on each shard that never touched factions that each had about 50-100 members. Thats not even accounting the for Felucca spawn only guilds that still never touched factions.

Right now there are more people that play tamers or do PvM content (maybe I wasn't being specific enough) in the large scale. Large scale group PvE content was made much easier by greater dragons and that was a bennefit to everyone that PvMs with a group. In the end a lot more people PvM in groups than will ever care about factions. Sorry, but I watched factions for the last 8 years and even in there hayday (before AoS) they were not exactly a popular part of game play.

#43
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts
True, huge was not the right word I was looking for.

There are still those that are big fans of Factions, much like there are those that are big fans of Thiefs. There will always be those that want what they like to be better.

Unfortunately, you are right. There are more people in Trammel than Felucca. So, what? Disregard those that play in Felucca because there are less of them? Disregard those that play Factions because there's even less of them?

Or keep pumping resources into making the "Tamers or PvM'ers" happy, which, by the way may be the majority of players, but a majority that has steadily dropped in numbers.

The number of subscriptions for UO have been on a steady decline, the same time frame that the PvM'ers voices have been heard. Maybe it's time for a change, eh?

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#44
galefan2004

galefan2004

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 99 posts

Or keep pumping resources into making the "Tamers or PvM'ers" happy, which, by the way may be the majority of players, but a majority that has steadily dropped in numbers.

The number of subscriptions for UO have been on a steady decline, the same time frame that the PvM'ers voices have been heard. Maybe it's time for a change, eh?


PvMers voices HAVE not been heard. The players have been leaving because we get tired of waiting. There are many more bugs in PvM than in PvP. The developers spend more time trying to balance PvP then fix PvM. Many aspects that should have been adjusted long ago or mistakes that should have never happend (putting power scrolls in Felucca, turning off Tokuno Artifacts) and even the Doom change came way to late.

Changing the focus from the majority to the minority is kind of pointless. They should have deleted factions when they realised the system did not work. Do you want to know the real reason the faction system does not work? The players...blame the bugs all you want but when you are trying to have consentual pvp in a system that is already filled with nonconsentual pvp then you will have a problem.

Factions should not be in Felucca...hell Felucca should not even exist on production shards (if you want to have non-con pvp then go to Mugen/Seige). In order to get players actually interested in factions you need to start by ending the involvement of non-faction members in factions via reds ganking faction players. I would be very interested in factions if it wasn't for the fact that they only exist in an area of the game that I don't approve of (the non-con gankfests of Felucca).

#45
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts

PvMers voices HAVE not been heard. The players have been leaving because we get tired of waiting.


What??? I've never once read anyone quit because of PvM issues, PvP issues on the other hand...

There are many more bugs in PvM than in PvP.


What???

Got examples?

Unless you're going to tell me that they made PvM too easy, then I don't know what issues you are talking about.

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#46
galefan2004

galefan2004

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 99 posts

What??? I've never once read anyone quit because of PvM issues, PvP issues on the other hand...


Believe it or not not everyone has to post an I'm quiting thread when they leave the game. In my opinion, PvPers are much more vocal and normally post these threads more often. I've left this game three times over the years...the first was right after AoS when they still had nerfed the tamers to all hell and I didn't return until after 7th edition came out, the second was over the legalization of sigil colored items (I felt they had no right to do this after having a period of ban on sight issues), and the third was because they turned off ToT phase two and the game just got much more boring.

What???
Got examples?
Unless you're going to tell me that they made PvM too easy, then I don't know what issues you are talking about.


The flying floating loot bug for starters. Also, they didn't respond to issues with Doom quickly enough. Also, they always seem to favor one template over another much more in PvM than in PvP. It was almost impossible to get involved in the Moonglow event if you didn't have a greater dragon or an archer, for example. On another note, PvP is at least 10x easier than PvM. Sorry but it is, the vast majority of the time you are either the one ganking or the one being ganked (in which case it is harder for you). Most of the time if you are getting ganked you die. Through the use of illegal programs it becomes even easier. I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for or desire to get involved in non-con pvp. When they make a decent consentual pvp system (what factions should be) that is not influenced by non-con pvp then I will gladly rally around the PvP cause.

#47
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts
Most bugs I've heard of brought up with PvM have been worked on/fixed or not horribly game changing (floating loot bug).

Doom was never a problem.

Template favoring is going to happen, you can't avoid it. But I do agree they need to take a longer look into this when implementing anything new.

The issues for PvP were game changing (for PvPers). Scroll/spell stacking, 4/6 Chiv/Magery, etc. were all issues that were not supposed to exist in the first place, yet those didn't get addressed until far later on compared to other problems.

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#48
galefan2004

galefan2004

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 99 posts

Most bugs I've heard of brought up with PvM have been worked on/fixed or not horribly game changing (floating loot bug).


Spending 5 minutes killing a balron paragon or 10 minutes killing an ancient wyrm paragon when these creatures don't even spawn every 20 like they are susposed to is not horribly game changing?

Doom was never a problem.


Spending three months in Doom and getting loot rights on EVERY kill but never getting an artifact while some people got two artifacts in an hour was not a problem?

Template favoring is going to happen, you can't avoid it. But I do agree they need to take a longer look into this when implementing anything new.


/agree

The issues for PvP were game changing (for PvPers). Scroll/spell stacking, 4/6 Chiv/Magery, etc. were all issues that were not supposed to exist in the first place, yet those didn't get addressed until far later on compared to other problems.


Everyone adapted to those pretty quickly on by making characters that were strong enough to stand up to each other. Yes some of those templates were extreme but the scroll/spell stacking issue is the only one that I would honestly have to say was major. I just find it hard to champion anything pvp when its all non-con pvp. I loved pvp in both DAoC and in WoW because I knew what I was consenting to when I consented to it. However, when you have complete non-con pvp it just bothers me. They need a good consentual pvp system (vast improvements to factions) and removal of the affects of non-con pvp on the game (if not an entire removal of it).

#49
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts

Spending 5 minutes killing a balron paragon or 10 minutes killing an ancient wyrm paragon when these creatures don't even spawn every 20 like they are susposed to is not horribly game changing?


Nope. Frustrating yes, but no game changing.

Spending three months in Doom and getting loot rights on EVERY kill but never getting an artifact while some people got two artifacts in an hour was not a problem?


Luck of the draw, you knew it going in. I don't feel anything should be guaranteed. I know that's just how I feel, and yes, I've spent months on end empty handed, but when I did get an item, it felt a hell of a lot better than the "I've killed my X amount of Y and got my Z, yippie".

Everyone adapted to those pretty quickly on by making characters that were strong enough to stand up to each other. Yes some of those templates were extreme but the scroll/spell stacking issue is the only one that I would honestly have to say was major. I just find it hard to champion anything pvp when its all non-con pvp. I loved pvp in both DAoC and in WoW because I knew what I was consenting to when I consented to it. However, when you have complete non-con pvp it just bothers me. They need a good consentual pvp system (vast improvements to factions) and removal of the affects of non-con pvp on the game (if not an entire removal of it).


Adapted to them yes, but still game changing because you needed to change the way you played the game (different skills, suits, etc.). Unlike the noted PvM bug above where the only thing you need to change is.... nothing.

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#50
galefan2004

galefan2004

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 99 posts

Adapted to them yes, but still game changing because you needed to change the way you played the game (different skills, suits, etc.). Unlike the noted PvM bug above where the only thing you need to change is.... nothing.


The biggest issue is still that pvp affected such a small segment of the population at the time. PvP in UO has always been a small segment of the population since the intervention of Trammel. Yet, Trammel was needed to keep players from griefing people till they finally just quit logging in. What should have been done was the complete removal of non-con pvp outside of SP and Mugen and the creation of a functional consentual pvp system instead of the implementation of Trammel.

#51
Warsong of LS

Warsong of LS

    Knowledge is power; Guard it well!

  • Members
  • 2,250 posts

The biggest issue is still that pvp affected such a small segment of the population at the time. PvP in UO has always been a small segment of the population since the intervention of Trammel. Yet, Trammel was needed to keep players from griefing people till they finally just quit logging in. What should have been done was the complete removal of non-con pvp outside of SP and Mugen and the creation of a functional consentual pvp system instead of the implementation of Trammel.


Apparently you missed Darkscribe stating that 25% of the current playerbase was participating in pvp. This was stated during the run up to the release of the KR client. Once stratics comes back up, I will be more than happy to either link you to the page or copy/paste it for you.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment

#52
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts

What should have been done was the complete removal of non-con pvp outside of SP and Mugen and the creation of a functional consentual pvp system instead of the implementation of Trammel.


That I'll agree with.

Unfortunate that is the way it should have gone (given all circumstances), but didn't.

Don't know if there is a way to fix the Tram/Fel issue.

Maybe they didn't need a Tram in the first place, if there were ways to make it harder/less attractive to kill other players (maybe be able to hire NPC guards that could actually do just that "guard", more punishment for being red, etc.) things could have worked out a little better.

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)

#53
Elitz

Elitz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63 posts
All in all, people are LAZY.

1. Tamers want a better pet that they dont have to do crap with but heal and stand there, i am surprised that they dont gripe about area damage, cause that means more thinking. hell, even with a pet that heals its self, they arent happy...

2. Warriors wanted better suits so they didnt have to run around and heal and disarm and cure with potions and whatever, so they got suits that they could wear that let them stand there with monsters that are rediculous..... the monsters are great to have in game, but it should take atleast 30 minutes to kill a bally or ancient wyrm, not to mention, you shouldnt be able to solo a paragon bally or ancient....

of course if you nerf anything, they gripe !!!!! cause it is too hard....


3. Mages thought it took too long to kill things, so they got faster casting for the allready rediculous spell damage.... and damage increase?

4. All the Lazy people got Insurance because they dont want to have to earn anything twice...... or once for that matter for alot of people....


All in All... People Are Lazy

#54
EmersonBiggins

EmersonBiggins

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 103 posts
This is ridiculous. This game has turned into "Pimp My Paperdoll".

1) Yes the population in Fell is low. The population in TRAM sucks now. And I'm on and have been on Catskills since September 1999. Three or four towns used to have a healthy population and the banks were bustling. Now they are ALL ghost towns except for Luna, and Luna is NOT a town. It's an overpriced flea market (at least on Catskills.)
2) I'm returning to the game after about a 2 year break. I've yet to run into someone in the old dungeons. They used to be packed, making it possible to go in, find a monster to kill and depend on others to help control the spawn. Now you head into a dungeon and you have every single monster targeting you, because noone else is there.
3) Many of the towns were deserted when there was no Trammel/Fell. And they just go in and create more towns?
4) The game just has a "dead" feel to it now because of the lack of players.
5) There's little economics for crafters to make normal items some of us "poor" players still want (runebooks, old school add-ons, etc.)...

IMHO, if they could bring more people back to the game by removing or combining shards, this would help.

#55
Elitz

Elitz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63 posts
i am not sure they will ever even respond to these posts, they have to see that the only reason that a ton of people even still pay for the accounts is in hopes that one day they can log back in and have the stuff they earned in older days.... i cant see how there is pride in earning much nowadays, a game is for the experience yuo get while playing, not the items you collect...

#56
Himmelweiss

Himmelweiss

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 45 posts
in all honesty, out of all changes and patches, Trammel was the worst idea for Ultima Online, it basically changed the UO's Core, it's another game since the existent of Trammel.

UO is not anymore the true Ultima Online and won't be ever again as long Trammel exists.

#57
Adam

Adam

    Former Owner

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts
Trammel wasn't the worst idea for UO, given that the majority of the population play in trammel, as opposed to Felucca, I'd say it was a good one.

The problem with UO, in my opinion, is it's been the same game (graphics/interface/playability) wise for 10+ years and hasn't changed with the times
EA's effort to modernise the game with KR, in my opinion, was an opportunity which was wasted, due to the buggy, incomplete client they shipped out.

#58
Himmelweiss

Himmelweiss

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 45 posts

Trammel wasn't the worst idea for UO, given that the majority of the population play in trammel, as opposed to Felucca, I'd say it was a good one.


This is only because people now have an entire guard zoned World, why go to felucca if you can be all safe in trammel ? There is no point to go to fel unless you look for some doubled ressources, champ spawns or PvP.

If there wasn't trammel, people would play in fel (and lots of old players would subscribe with their accounts again). But we have both, so it's no surprise at all that most people play now in trammel and move to fel if they feel ready for some "all of a suddon popped up red player".

Sure it sucked to get ganked while you are mining or whatever, but honestly, now that we have trammel, why should i go to fel if i have zero risk in trammel ? And this is again the reason why the majority of the players play in trammel.

In other words, yes trammel was indeed the worst idea for UO, because now everyone thinks UO can't live without trammel. And this explains why the majority of the players play in trammel, nothing more. If it was never added, we would have still the same count of accounts if not by far more.

Just check out all the games that are being developed nowadays with the idea to create a game similar to UO (T2A times) but with up-do-date graphics. Lots of players watching thoose projects, really alot, i bet 50% of thoose would jump right back to UO if there wasn't trammel. Also lots of players of all the freeshards would resubscribe their accounts if there wasn't trammel, because on freeshards you rarely do have amazing new content or features.

#59
Asleif

Asleif

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 26 posts
Ehem ... one question: WHY the hell was Trammel the worst thing that happened to UO?
As most of you name it: Most player ARE playing in TRAMMEL. This is because it is more save, you won't lose anything (insurance) and there are no PKs (I think this is the main point for most Trammel-players). A majority of people LIKE this kind of game. And I like it too.

I only go to to Fel when I HAVE to do it. In rare circumstances I need to go to Fel. But thats it. I DO NOT like Fel - I want to play in Trammel.

Getting rid of Trammel would cause this game to instantly die.

On the other hand there is enough content availabe ONLY at Fel. See Peerless.
Thou hast an adventure at hand an seekest some additional power from a mage? - Then thou shalt raise thy voice and call for the power of the mages and scribes. I'll be fully yours.

Playing on Europa, Trammel only (as long, as I've not achieved to reach 7x100)

#60
DiP

DiP

    The Anti-Adam (which means I'm cool)

  • Members
  • 9,578 posts
I think you mean Champ Spawns Asleif, or more specifically, Power Scrolls.

But that's pretty much it, there isn't extra "content" in Fel.

Posted Image

Thanks again Maddux!

Adri: women don't discuss men while in the bathroom, we sacrifice small animals and smoke tampons *rolls eyes*


Adam: aye and in order to expedite the production of solidiers, i kill off the old people (Carp was right, Adam IS evil!)





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: trammel