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What have happened to RP?

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#81
Kaelith

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How can a melee fighter, on their own, defeat someone running in a straight line away from them?

Answer: They can't unless they have a far superior connection. And even then the character running away will probably jink out of a the way after 1 hit.

This is why I hated being a pure melee character. The only people I ever saw melee character kill were those that ran out of stamina due to being hit by other people, those that got killed standing still because several people ganged up on them to kill them quickly, those that lost connection and were standing still, and people with rubbish con or who weren't very smart. Basicaly, anyone with any sense should never die to a pure melee.

If a melee character is chasing an archer they are probably not very bright or unaware of the fact that the archer can continue to shoot at them endlessly while the melee character will likely never reach the archer once.

moving shot = bane of pure meleer

#82
Gnomy

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Wished UO would have done this a loooooong time ago as other games..

One speed..

Anyone remember LiGhT in Buccs beginning of UOR? .. one of the first on EU with a fast connection? 10 ping... He took easily 5-7 people down... why? He could run... and pot.

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#83
Park Su-mi

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How can a melee fighter, on their own, defeat someone running in a straight line away from them?

Answer: They can't unless they have a far superior connection. And even then the character running away will probably jink out of a the way after 1 hit.



Exactly. That's all my point was, really. It was a case of criticizing the game more than bigging up myself, or knocking Gwen. Bandage times are now far too quick, stamina has too little effect and there's a huge imbalance in special moves.

(Oh, and anyone with half decent armour shouldn't really die to one person moving-shotting alone. Even with blight quiver + Yew bows you've got to be vastly lucky to floor someone just MSing. The archer that doesn't take risks is the archer that won't "win" 1 v 1, however much he survives.)

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#84
KimiUOF

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Wow! Just read through all the arguements and now a fight! Guess the egos have landed :laugh:

There is a fundamental flaw in UO (along with other inconsistances) when it comes to PvP. Historically archers had pretty poor success against properly armoured opponents. Plate and overlapping chain or linked metal was designed to deflect arrows. It was extremely rare that such missiles could penetrate far enough through a well designed suit to be fatal, even at close range. The worst a knight could expect was extremely bad bruising. This has been proved in modern testing using reconstructed archeological evidence.

Of course, these suits did have gaps leaving certain weak points, but an archer would need the accuracy beyond that of Robin Hood to score such a hit. Harold was just unlucky, he copped one in the eye. Hit anywhere else and he might have survived and changed history.

As the technology of bows improved, so did the protection against them and missile propelling weapons did not gain the upper hand until the development of gunpowder.

What archers were good at was decimating the hordes of peasants and common folk who were poorly, or more likely, unarmoured. These units, which made up the bulk of any army, could overwhelm the knights by shear weight of numbers, hence the development of archers. Also bear in mind archers had to be well protected (or hidden) by other units to be useful. A stand alone archer unit never won any battle. Nor could an archer load and shoot whilst moving on foot. A crossbow couldn't be loaded and shot whilst moving, even on horseback.

The whole make-up of UO skills is really more loaded to PvM than PvP which is why there is so many loopholes and inconsistances but its the same for everybody, just that some exploit them better than others 'cos losing really isn't an option for them.

But hey, in the end it's all fantasy and nobodys character ends up perma dead so in the end what's the big deal?
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#85
Kaelith

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But hey, in the end it's all fantasy and nobodys character ends up perma dead so in the end what's the big deal?


... Fighting becomes tiresome and it spoils fighting anything apart from a duel - which become dull after a while and are imbalanced in their own way.

#86
Olk Samsca

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I disagree with you there Kaelith. Battles where sides include a good eight, ten or more people per side are the most balanced forms of combat in Uo that exist. Primarilly because with that number of people strategy and discipline matter far more than individual speed or template. Battlefield strategy and communications is what wins battles.

Has to be said though considering archery in Uo and real life is a bit questionable. For one thing bows let alone crossbows had a little more range than ten yards! I think armour would be penetrated if you fired at such close range even if plate armour was often designed so that blows would slide off rather than penetrate.

As for the decline of melee combat, it wasn't a game play thing so much as a cultural thing. The Yewish always insist on running away if they doubt they will live rather than bravely placing themselves in the heart of battle. That isn't to say the Yewish method isn't superior, but it generally wasn't practiced before their entrance into the CoRE based world. People still drilled crosshealing despite the fact 5 warriors could be killed by two ranged opponents if they just stood still.

#87
Park Su-mi

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Just going to denounce Kimi's entire argument by pointing out that most of UO's successful "archers" are in fact crossbowmen. A device well and truly capable of penetrating most armour ;).

I disagree with you there Kaelith. Battles where sides include a good eight, ten or more people per side are the most balanced forms of combat in Uo that exist. Primarilly because with that number of people strategy and discipline matter far more than individual speed or template. Battlefield strategy and communications is what wins battles.


Entirely agree with that, yes.

The Yewish always insist on running away if they doubt they will live rather than bravely placing themselves in the heart of battle.


Erm, not sure I agree with that generalisation, to be honest.

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#88
Olk Samsca

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Erm, not sure I agree with that generalisation, to be honest.


Well it was something of a sweeping generalisation.
But a reasonably true one I think. Atleast in my view the first engagements between Vesper and Grd, in which the Guardsmen were victorious, were coloured between the extreme movement of the Yewish and the vestigal desire for crosshealing ranks on the part of Vesper. The Yewish could engage our forces, kill some and withdraw causing confusion in our ranks untill they could overwhelm us with a final thrust.

The first major engagement was a disaster, Twothumb had us construct a wall of boxes across the road below covetous with the time of trapping the Yewish. Davion took my (most assume they were his.. mortals) Black Caps to hunt the Yewish, unaware of their many archers and their practice in the employment of that weapon. We engaged the Yewish near my house, where upon their many paralysing arrows struck down our mages and Davion himself was slain. The black caps retreated back to our main host much reduced. The Yewish closed in upon our main host and with their many archers decimated our ranks as we sought to cross the very wall of boxes we had made to trap the Yewish forces. Yewish losses were very light meanwhile ours were nearly total.

It wasn't untill the Vesperians had proved to the Baron that traditional Olofian tactics could not work that we started to clock up some victories over the Yewish. It didn't take long, a month or so but it did take some time. Vesper adapts reasonably quickly in that respect. Notably for myself were three victories in which my tactic of employing portals to engage them more closely put Grd into disorder and eventual rout. There were also times when the Black Caps managed to decimate Yewish arms due to their lack of experience with magi.

With the conquest of Vesper and the expansion of allies of both sides, tactical movement became less of an issue in the following war. The numbers were too considerable on both sides for movement to really prosper. In modern times the Yewish to their credit still practice a greater use of battlefield movement than other powers.

-History incoming.

Before Yew entered the CoRE scene, even though mortal strike and so on had made it redundant the primary combatants of CoRE insisted on forming ranks, crosshealing and combat remained a relatively close affair. There was little movement involved. The Kaldorians, Templars (although AoS rather ended them as a power) LB and so on were adept at this, mastering crosshealing prior to the changes. BoC for example went down this doctrinal road.

Vesper never really mastered crosshealing, primarilly as a cultural thing. We were usually outnumbered, in some cases such as the second Kaldorian war (which was something of a follow-on from the war to avenge the murderous slaying of the most beloved brother of the Baron) disasterously so. I think there were two battles where about 10~ Vesperians faced down 40 odd Kaldorians, LB, KoV and some Drow, possibly Von'Sah and were quickly slaughtered. Before the introduction of special moves our prime foe had been the mage chiors of LB, a force not easilly beaten by simple crosshealing although the battle for Minoc was a classic example of an ERPA battle in which crosshealing was king. Atleast before the last 10 minutes when the Vesperian and Kaldorian forces routed the LB/Templar remnants.

Given this case of numbers, movement had to be embraced so that Vespers elite skirmishing force (primarilly the Black Caps, although there were some others) would not be destroyed in the initial chaos of 25 people attacking 25 other people. These numbers ranged higher or lower depending.

At the conclusion of the second Vesperian-Kaldorian war, which had ended acrimoniously, Vesper ceased practicing war on external powers except in the most limited way and occasionally with the now flourishing BoC. The primary war was Kaldor vs Trinsic, and the old tactics were largely restored due to the nature of that conflict with limited movement. Olofian doctrine returned with the view that the classic image of massed ranks of crosshealing folk eventually walking over the corpses of foes who had stood their ground could work. When we eventually faced the Yewish hosts it failed.

Vesper then effectively abandoned crosshealing in all but the most limited way and became a far swifter organisation atleast when led by someone willing to use it like that.

#89
KimiUOF

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Has to be said though considering archery in Uo and real life is a bit questionable. For one thing bows let alone crossbows had a little more range than ten yards! I think armour would be penetrated if you fired at such close range even if plate armour was often designed so that blows would slide off rather than penetrate.


Exactly my point. UO is not even close to reality, just look at the things you can do in UO as any sort of fighter which are just impossible in reality.

Just going to denounce Kimi's entire argument by pointing out that most of UO's successful "archers" are in fact crossbowmen. A device well and truly capable of penetrating most armour ;).


Again don't confuse UO and reality and don't confuse medieval technology with modern. Even at close range a crossbow bolt would not penetrate FATALLY well made armour.

Plus the accuracy of bows and crossbows where not that impressive. William Tell and Robin Hood (if they actually existed as Hollywood portrays them) could not shoot as good as romance would suggest. But as I said this is fantasy :)
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#90
Park Su-mi

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The crossbow represented an evolution in weapon technology steered towards penetrating metal armour. Don't stand there and tell me a crossbow wouldn't get through a bit of steel at next to point blank range, that's just silly.

PS: "Fatally well made armour"? Sounds nasty!

And I can't say I am confusing UO with real life. You're the person that brought it up in the first place!

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#91
KimiUOF

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The crossbow represented an evolution in weapon technology steered towards penetrating metal armour. Don't stand there and tell me a crossbow wouldn't get through a bit of steel at next to point blank range, that's just silly.


Sure at point or near point blank range it would; but no crossbow man was ever going to get that close unless his target was sleeping. You couldn't sneek up on someone with a pre-loaded crossbow....there was no safety mechanism! So crank up the bow, load it then fire without being interupted....nope don't think so. No crossbows where developed for increased distance to bring down horses.

PS: "Fatally well made armour"? Sounds nasty!


Ok so I mislaid a comma...can't all be perfect. =)

And I can't say I am confusing UO with real life. You're the person that brought it up in the first place!


I didn't, thats just the assumption thats been made.
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#92
Kaelith

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Beautifully written rant olk.

I can certainly validate that yewish forces decimated vesper numerous times with archery.

Not sure why you disagreed with me though? My point was that UO pvp is nothing like realistic and a melee character can be standing in the middle of a battlefield filled with bodies and never to grips with anyone as they will run away as soon as they are hit once!

To add a little detail into the middle period of tactical development. In the second stage/half of the second kaldorian war the "block and skirmish" tactic was devised to make the most of the black caps capabilities. This was actually a tactic taken on by Gregor Eason in BoC, but to not great success as they never had an elite up to the job.

The block and skirmish tactic, in my opinion, revolutionised vesperian warfare as it meant the traditional xhealing fighting armies were surrounded and encouraged to break up while vespers own force always maintained a small stable centre to retreat to, made up of healers and our few archers. It was my belief that this is what won the second kaldorian war, along with being able to get more even numbers on the battlefield; enough to match the kaldorians.

The block and skirmish also proved desicive in several engagements against Yew, when employed, as it prevented yew being able to regroup and counter attack and meant the allied rebel forces maintained a strong centre; which in this case was made up of Covian infantry.

As yew were far better organised on the battlefield it also worked as a transition tactic into skirmish warfare.

I distinctly remember one engagement up by the mill in yew where I stood amongst a block of Covians while the black caps and elite vesperians maintained a close proximity in skirmish order. Every time the guardsmen attacked our block they lost men as they came steaming in and as they retreated to regroup they were continually harrassed by our skirmishers. If the guardsmen then turned on our skirmishers they would, mostly, come running back to the central block for protection.

Admittedly, this was before yew took up archery in a BIG way and their armies seemed to be filled with heavy infantry; it was also before all bows were re-worked and their damage values put through the roof! So I don't think the tactic would have worked against contemporary yewish armies.


To put a point to the history discussion: The quality of plate armour varied greatly. There was plate armour and then there was plate armour. I believe it is generally accepted that the bodkin point could get through most plate armour at ranges under 50yards but only if it came into contact with a FLAT surface. Most plate armour was angular and designed to deflect blow (as pointed out earlier). So most people in well made plate armour would be proof against bowmen.

Crossbows did have an increased penetrating capability, but not by much.

However, the bodkin arrow and crossbow did spell the end of mail armour. I believe the bodkin was actually designed to penetrate mail, not plate; Its extra pointy and heavier head meant that it would slice through mail armour without much trouble.

So in general, bowmen and crossbowmen would generally be employed to disrupt less well armoured formations and horsemen. The best tactic against archers was to attack them with heavily armoured infantry, which was something the french learned the hard way in the 100 years war, but armour technology for the masses wasn't up to scratch until the end of the war.

#93
Olk Samsca

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I will agree that Uo combat is nothing like real combat to a point. There are certain similarities to naval combat (especially when its archer vs archer) and basic battle strategy. Melee may be unable to get to grips with a foe who always withdraws, but entire armies rarely withdraw in concert and it would be difficult to support the proposition that melee never kills anyone. If need be they require support from archers and mages to hold their opponent. Its probably a pity Uo lacks any slowing mechanism and your options are either paralyse or full speed. The real trick is to get melee behind the opponent so when they withdraw they run into it, incurring losses on the way. The Yewish intially made good use of heavy infantry untill we became more adept at turning aside or withdrawing from their armoured thrusts. They continue to make good use of light infantry.

I thought the block and skirmish tactic was developed somewhat later? Our prime tactic in the second Kaldorian war was one of two forces true but they both moved. The first consisting of our newer recruits was led by Zell and the other consisting of our veterans led by Nox, Davion or someone else. The aim being that the recruits would swarm in on fixed LB choir positions to draw off the initial flurry of spells then our elite would fall upon them while their mana and concentration was reduced. The recruits would also take down barriers and such since their loss was not so harmful.

A choir being a block of around 3-4 mages who can knock down people with impunity and provide significant healing to each member involved. Not for Kaelith but incase anyone is reading and wondering.

I thought the block and skirmish idea was generated some time later through fighting the Yewish and Covians and fixed later on due to our alliance with Cove; where they largely provided the block and we provided the skirmishers. It is certainly true that the first campaign against Yew saw its extensive usage. The battles for the mill and the battle for empath abbey are good examples.

Archery damage may have been improved, but once we calculate armour its only a handful more damage per shot. Noticable yes, but not something to really change the effectiveness of archers. Argueably it was just to make up for the fact that melee could swap their axes for ornate axes and macers could swap whatever they wanted to use for diamond maces.

I doubt plate armour could ever be "proof" against arrow or bolt at extremely short range. Its not like taking a pistol to a modern tank and knowing you have no chance at all of penetrating. On the otherhand at such close range the archer in question is likely only to get only one shot off (and likely paniced) and you would have a good chance of it missing or glancing off for negligiable effect. Archery (and indeed musketry) after all was more like modern artillery than the rifle-like image generally portrayed. Aim at lots of people and hope you hit something. In such a situation plate will protect you from most of it.

Which is argueably what happens in Uo if you have 70 physical resistance (generally by dull copper) and they don't have any ability to alter the damage type of their arrows. 15 damage per shot attacks every few seconds won't kill anyone who has bandages.

While I suspect Kaelith and I can discuss Vesperian strategy all day (and Kaelith can probably offer some insights into Cove which I largely missed) if anyone wants to explain how the Yewish don't employ considerable movement to avoid taking unrequired losses I will gladly read it.

#94
Kaelith

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I employed the use of waves in one battle against the kaldorians after i'd received intell that they had put up a barrier, but I was using the block and skirmish at that time. It was essentially when it was in it's trials.

If you remember, Zell went in with the recruits as fodder to take down the barricade, then the black caps swarmed through and then the block with you, me and a couple of healing mages followed up.

It wasn't quite the same, but considering the size of the armies I think it helped. But block and skirmish didn't really come into it's own until the few battles in yew when it proved decisive. I always though it a shame that no one else really used it.. Cove being the only people to use it, or more accurately Gregor Eason. But he didn't have the troops to really use it properly.

#95
Olk Samsca

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Well I think it had the flaw in that the block could easilly end up not doing very much. If 5 people try to skirmish with 10 meanwhile 5 hold some area, odds are the 5 skirmishers are going to die for few losses then the 8-10 remaining foes can break up the 5 still holding the block.

If for some inexplicable reason the opponent attacks the block (because the 5 skirmishers have joined it rather than seeking the foe) then you have effectively fully blocked, with some given more leeway to run than others.

All in all a system where everyone skirmishes, staying together in small groups, coming together into big groups when possible in a very fluid way seems the best method of warfare. It requires good communications however or everyone gets lost and quickly killed by superior numbers.

The block also requires significant discipline which is often not sensible. Crosshealing while doing no or negligable damage isn't going to win you a battle. It was generally melee who formed the block and yet melee has to close to do any damage. I remember an engagement with LB where they formed a block outside the bank in Minoc. We engaged with about 8 men each. Vesper did badly (start of a new generation thus we had alot of new recruits) and all bar Davion and myself were slain leaving about 4-5 LB meleers left. They formed up to crossheal. Davion and I proceeded to knock down two or three before the final two chased us a bit before being knocked down in turn.

Blocks should really be punches able to hit the foes main battle line together at speed but again the discipline and training to turn them into such was rarely there. They end up a reactive group who if not ranged are offering little for the course of the battle. Also the foe tended to withdraw and if this was universal (especially the case for GRD) the constant charges accomplished little or nothing. You had to try and get behind them or turn a flank so you had melee in amongst them confusing their flight.

#96
Darkion

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Can't say i've ever had a problem killing with a Melee char.


Lol, Viconia?? This char Isnt an archer?! :o
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#97
Dryax

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I'm talking about RP not Felucca.

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#98
Darkion

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Hehe im only joking ^^, Gnomy got ya did he?
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#99
Kaelith

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The original idea of the block and skirmish was actually to have archers and mages in the block as they could cause damage from range.

I completely agree that to have a fully skirmishing army is the best strategy but, as you said, it requires a lot of practice and disciplin. with the block and skirmish the idea was really that the skirmishes stay within a screen of the block at all times so the mages can heal them easily and, in turn, the mages in the block get xhealing from any archers and/or the commander.

This is certainly how I worked it in the kaldorian war, but in the yewish rebellion we couldn't work it that way, because cove was full of meleers who weren't good enough to stand up to the guardsmen, but were well drilled in xhealing.

In a way another, unexpected, strength appeared in the block and skirmish in that with elite skirmishes (which vesper had at the time) it allowed poor quality troops to form an effective threat to the enemy without losing disciplin and just being annihilated. If we'd allowed those troops to just run around like the black caps they'd have been picked apart and the whole battle would have spread out as everyone ran away from everyone else and got into chasing matches.

In the battle after the mill (i think it was the distillery) we only won by the fact we held the building for just long enough, but technically we were all "killed" eventually (we held for a good hour!). I think we held that building because I maintained the block inside and the guardsmen were never able to form a proper attack on it because the elite of vesper were constantly harrassing them and if the vesperians ever got seriously attacked they just merged into the block.

My point is basically that the block and skirmish is a simplistic strategy that allows armies with only a few good quality troops to function in an effective and controlled manner. All meleers have to remember is to stay within sight of the block and mages and archers can form a solid centre protecting by the numerous circling meleers. It also gives the commander a solid centre from which he is relatively well protected and has a good view of the battle. plus, it isolates the battle in one area so the force can maintain cohesiveness.

Something that always annoyed me was the lack of healing that came from mages, which was why i eventually trained up a certain amount.

The block always had a couple of mages dedicated to healing, this meant the skirmishes were probably worth 2 men each as they were constantly healed of their wounds and poison.

Also, at the time no other armies were disciplined enough or had encountered it to counter it effectively.

Eventually yew took the bow up in a big way and became the armies i imagine they still are today. but at the time it is still my belief that the block and skirmish won several good victories. I'm not so sure it would have when I last played and probably not anymore as most armies seem to be mostly comprising of mages and archers! the block and skirmish relies on their being a majority meleers to skirmish around the block.

#100
Gnomy

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Hehe im only joking ^^, Gnomy got ya did he?


Gnomy gets all.... :D

Actually Vic was in Tre long long ago, I just got him back ;)

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