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What have happened to RP?

- - - - - happened rp

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#41
Park Su-mi

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Tamers aren't PvPers. They're spectators.

All kill, no skill. ;)

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#42
Gnomy

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All kill, no skill. ;)


The same was said about dexers for a very long time in UO.. The only thing that really counted as skilled pvp was mages.

Dex = no skill

Time changes.. Tamers got their place in PvP - had a longer time actually.

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#43
Coppelia

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Aren't we speaking about RP PvP?
Tamers never had a place there, or did I miss a special era?

#44
Thaur Macil

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I don't understand what we're discussing.. Are we saying that tamers aren't good, or nerfed too hard in RPvP?

Vordrius (V^S) ‎(17:52):
THAT'S why all my chars have been ********!!! It's because I knew deep down I hated RPers!!!

#45
Gnomy

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Coppelia try a pack of wolves or pack of hellcats...

Allowed in RP pvp and they HURT! :(

Either way... this thread is over! Thanks all for saying what was on your minds!

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#46
Thaur Macil

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I've got so much more on my mind! Don't censor me!!! *wails*

Sorry..

Vordrius (V^S) ‎(17:52):
THAT'S why all my chars have been ********!!! It's because I knew deep down I hated RPers!!!

#47
Coppelia

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Coppelia try a pack of wolves or pack of hellcats...

Allowed in RP pvp and they HURT! :(

Either way... this thread is over! Thanks all for saying what was on your minds!

No they don't. 2 frenzies aren't dangerous either.
If you die to 2 wolves, you are :
- a civilian without armour who can't bother running away
- a mage without wrestling stuck between crates who forgot the Protection spell
- AFK
- on a 33k RTS connection with packet loss
- all of the above

I'm just complaining that people don't want to speak about pets in RP PvP because they heard that Rune Beetles and Hiryus are overpowered. Sometimes they have painful reminiscence of pre-pub16 packs of dragons chomping their rears.
Mostly because they don't know how to counter a tamer. Archers automatic hit back doesn't include the guide on how to neutralize a tamer maybe. ;)

IMO what's killing RP PvP balance isn't Mages or Archers or Poison. It's 120 powerscrolls.

#48
Gnomy

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I've seen people drop dead in less than 4secs to Escas pack of hellcats.. Was no civvies then. Was a warrior in full armor.

But he is the only successful tamer ive seen in rp pvp though. Oh yea and Cecil with his hellhounds.

and agree its the scrolls that are destroying it all.

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#49
Thaur Macil

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I have to disagree on the scrolls thing. For example the other day my char with 120 swords, anat and tac was swinging at a grd besieger with only gm in all skills. He was parrying me like a crazy person. Magery, necro and lethal poison would be horrible if one couldn't atleast try to dish out some damage on ones other templates.

I would say potions and several ways of healing oneself on one template is worse. Of course one can argue that poisoners would be even more overpowered if one couldn't even pot, but seeing mages with atleast three ways of healing themselves is crazy talk.. Crazy talk!!

And tamers in pvp are pretty much unbeatable in duels, their pets pretty much teleports over to the target in the beginning, you can't outrun them at all, and they're the only caster who can cast spells several screens away (if you somehow should be able to outrun them).

But seriously.. NOT saying I want tamers nerfed at all! Keep them as they are, but I find it strange that they're called weak templates. They aren't in felucca and they aren't in RPvP.

Vordrius (V^S) ‎(17:52):
THAT'S why all my chars have been ********!!! It's because I knew deep down I hated RPers!!!

#50
Coppelia

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From my experience with a Master Fencer (95ish fencing, anat, tactics, 70 parrying and 100 dex), the comparison with a 120 weaponskill is desperating. While with a kryss I should stay in contact because I'm the fastest, I hit less that a axe warrior. It's particularily marking in duel. In group fight, I can count on warfork disarm move in the confusion : without a weapon, my opponent is hit everytime.
One could say "then get a scroll", but then what's the point of magic items restriction? Get decent gear. My conception of RP PvP is rather to open player interactions to something other than verbal conflicts and to give access to a fun part of the game to those who aren't able to compete in Feluccan battlegrounds. As RPing takes time, some players don't have the time to get fully involved in powergaming. RP being open for all, RP PvP must welcome players.
Furthermore gaining skill from GM to 120 is long and tedious. But in fact most of players use golem to quicken the process. This is hardly a smart way to play.



To come back to tamers, first of all it's like Necromancy. Not everyone should use evil pets. Hellcats are likely to be related to hell.
Secondly duels in a small arena should not make the rules. In an open field, there are lots of opportunity to get rid of pets, and a pack of 2 pets is not really a pack. In a battle if a tamer makes more casualties than other templates, then you're doing something wrong and deserve to loose.
But I think that the lack of tamers using pets in RP PvP is due to a too severe restriction. We all try once with such and such authorized pet, and finally it's not worth it.

#51
Thaur Macil

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To be completely honest if you don't have grandmastered skills you will be hurt pretty badly by anyone who's gm or above. Doesn't matter if it's 120, cause the leap from 99 to 100 in most skills is a big one. If the community decided to ban every skill from going above gm that's fine, but you have to agree that some templates would become even more powerful.

Everyone enjoys to train in their own way. I wouldn't really call it powergaming anymore, seeing as skills have become incrfedibly easy to train. Parry is a laugh for example. One thing though, is that I don't see how you can say that people with 120 skills are too powerful, when you don't even care if you're GM. No offense and all that hehe.

I dueled Cecil's two bears once, barely stayed alive, while they chew me and he smacked at me with his mace, and the only reason I stayed alive is that I was a complete pot-(wench?) a few years ago. If you restrict your own chars I don't understand how you can say that others should do so too. I'd reform and I'd do it happily if it became the rules of the community, but I would most likely be remaking my char then with more powerful skills than I have now.

Vordrius (V^S) ‎(17:52):
THAT'S why all my chars have been ********!!! It's because I knew deep down I hated RPers!!!

#52
Kaelith

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Esca and his hounds were incredible in battle. They don't suffer from lag and cast fireballs and bite quite hard. They are thwarted if people decide to stick together and xheal, but xhealing is archiac and not that effective anymore due to mortal strike's existance.

You can debate for however long, but esca especially has been incredibly successful in battle as a tamer and because of his success I remember a few other people taking up taming and becoming equally successful, mainly in A^K.

#53
Gnomy

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I for a while considered taking parry on Gnomy.. Well i actually had parry.. then change stats so i had 55dex.. and pot my dex to 75. Why?

Because parry is only good over 75.. then it gets godlike. Seen a Mage running around with a SC blessed candle? (works like shield and allowed) :P

Buut the better good of me decided that was just crazy.. Really doesnt fit Gnomy either.

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#54
Haleorn

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A Davion has entered the server. Long time no see. This is an interesting debate, with alot of very confused (and occasionally laughable) ideas about RPvP. I'm not sure if UO has changed drastically in the last two or three months since I stopped playing properly. Esca and his hounds used to be diabolical. Even I was loathe to pick a fight with him because of just how obscenely nasty those things could be when used in proper combination with spells (which, eventually, Esca learned to do). Me with 130+hp being instagibbed by him in 1v1's was classic.

On to business though I guess. A surge in Archers has been on the cards for months I would have thought - especially with the decline of -V- as possibly the only guild of recent times to field reasonable numbers of mages and therefore not be able (if we wanted to) to rampantly run off into the forest en masse as soon as someone is in trouble. If there's one thing I wish Vesper had more of when I played, then it was archers, because nothing else is honestly going to catch the people who do run away every time someone gives them a hairy eyeball.

Although there's alot of reasons why people might be more inclined to become Archers - ranged fire, decent special moves, just plain old looking cool etc, I believe that the biggest push-factor for people wanting to make archers is because you can catch people with it - doubly so if you are in a restrivtive guild which may not allow / approve of mages who could do much the same. The one thing that pushed me to make an Archer-Hanse, and I know for a fact for many other -V- to make themselves decent archers, was solely to be able to catch people who otherwise are just running for the hills on their super connections.

Hanse Davion [-V-], Haleorn [DDi], Angfan [Clw]

1998 - 2010


#55
Haleorn

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Addendum: On a sidenote, anyone who thinks a pure archer (or indeed any template) stomps all over a pure mages balls is wrong. One of the things that made -V- annoying was that so many people underestimate mages based on their own, largely unfounded conceptions about what they are capable of both in a battle and especially when it comes to one versus one.

I've seen hundreds of people doing it over the past few years, from Legendary Chiv Archers in Vesper, to Evasion-spammers in Trinsic, to Valorite/Tokuno dyed armor wearing Chiv users in Cove to potion-chugging off-screeners in Yew. In a one on one fight with X template versus a pure mage, nothing is decided until the fight ends and someone has died. Thats true of most Vesparian Mages, especially ones like Geronimo, Lyonya, Myself, Phlebas, Rhyddin, Bathory, Blacksmith Joe etc who have often been very proud of still having Mages fielded in RPvP.

Hanse Davion [-V-], Haleorn [DDi], Angfan [Clw]

1998 - 2010


#56
Arius

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You "forgot" to add my name to that list you prick...*eyes*
And yes, mages are still in my oh so humble opinion the most powerful class to play when played right. -Especially- when fielded in large numbers...ahh the glorious "para gank". Good times...good times...Vesper at their peak had developed several tactics to make them even more effective using the help of melee fighters too. But yes, archers seemed to be under the impression that they'd get executed in Vesper...sorta like mages get burned in Yew! Strange...

Anyhoo, besides a mage played right, I'd definitely agree with those saying a tamer is by far deadlier...Esca was such a pain with those damned furballs...so the notion of tamers being restricted in RPVP is incorrect I'd say. RPVP battles would be over in seconds if everyone suddenly tamed and trained 2 hellcats or whatever the hell they're called...
Thaur Macil ‎(22:29):
There is no such thing as the female orgasm..

#57
Escaflowne/Balgus

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Well firstly i can tell you if you really think the RoE on tamers should be de restricted then you are seriously wrong, that would just be stupid. In my 4 years or so experience of fighting with my Tamer in RP PvP, i have never ever had that cross my mind, two pets is more than enough. I mean my fellow vesparians call my rune beatle the black tile of death after it slaughtered 3 of them fighting it at the same time while crosshealing. My two hellcats both have like 130hp and 180 str, and with the pack bonus they dish out 10-15dmg per bite each and they bite extremely fast. They have killed many people on their own without my help before and whats even worse is they've killed quite a few people trying to run with hardly any health when they breath fireballs on them.

Secondly IC Escaflowne was born and bred in Delucia, and whats in Delucia? thats right that fiery volcanoe dungeon that just happens to be home to hellcats. These hellcats IC have been Esca's companions for years from when he ventured into that dungeon when he was young and tamed the beasts. But Esca isn't evil.

Thirdly some say that Tamers arnt skill at all their just kill, to a degree this is true, but to a degree this isn't. Trying to notice whats going on and control yourself PLUS your pets on a battlefield is no easy task i can tell you; its like controlling two characters. You have to pick your pets targets and try to run over and heal them during a battle whilst your being attacked and having to defend yourself, but then you need your pets help you with the people attacking you but they've ran off bloody screen chasing someone else. Trying to keep all of you alive is no easy task which most of the time i die or my cats die, and we depend on eachother. People moan about tamers and using taming saying that us tamers shouldn't use it etc fight me without taming. Its a skill we chose to select, its like me saying to you "Right i can't use my 120 taming,vet and lore (Half my template basically), and you can't use, lets see, healing your weapon skill and focus".

Fourthly i am a crap mage, infact with just magery,eval and med i wouldn't even call myself a mage. I don't use UOA so i have to stand still to drink a potion which makes me vunerable to attack. Even if i was a pure mage i would never be good like Hanse, Lyonya, gnomey and so forth. I never really got the hang of a mage as i mostly used to PvP with my warrior back in CoY with The Crimson Rogues. I can PvP much better on my warrior than on Esca. But I am the Captain of the Vesper Militia, i can't be some weak little mage who gets owned by literally everyone, i need to pose some sort of a threat, and my cats give me that, but that isn't always a good thing.

Which leads me to my last point, for the past 4 years or so i have been targeted first in most of my battles, because if you take me out i can't command the cats. Most battles i never even saw more than 10 seconds of because everyone jumped on me and its only till recently i have devised tactics and plans to avoid this. But i tell you when i do last out a battle it reminds me why i play my tamer, because its f*cking fun!!! Its fun to actually do some damage, and trust me when i am surviving i do inflict some serious damage with my cats, all it takes is one cat-mage combo to drop someone on the spot, its fun to watch my cats run around biting people, its fun to watching someone run passed be closely persued by my cats, and its fun to watch redlined enermies trying to escape but then get blasted from a mile away by my cats fireballs and die. And what makes it even the more rewarding is that i die 75% of my battles really early into it, and to finnaly survive a battle and do well is a great feeling.

And do you know what, i die much much more on Esca than i do on my warrior, but i have more fun on Esca even though im better at PvPing on my warrior. Because i am used to dieing on Esca, so it doesn't bother me when i do, i just generally have fun. When i die on my warrior im not used to it so it pisses me off alot sometimes and stresses me out. I love my pet classes and controlling all sorts of weird and wonderful pets, even the OOC side of hunting with them. I am a pet class on every single MMO i play because i love it so much and they are normally the funnest class for me, hell im evening doing an Animal Managment course IRL to become a tamer of the sort lol.

At the end of the day every template has it weaknesses, and one may seem overpowered to another but then that overpowered one will see another template as over powered. And going on to powerscrolls for those that said it ruined RPvP, the only way for us Pure warriors, like my pure warrior a lumber axer, we need powerscrolls to survive and actually win against the new age templates. My Warrior is suited and booted with 120 swords,tactics,anatomy,healing,focus and 100 lumber and yet i still get killed by so many different people and their templates.

And for one last point is that on a large scale battle, it doesn't come down to templates, it comes down to tactics and team work. Im sorry if it seems like i've babbled on but i get fed up with people giving tamers sh*t year after year, are there even so many of us around in RP to complain about? no we are very rare in RP, and even though we may seem overpowered at some points when we actually surive, we get taken out right at the start of battles most of the time as we are the first targets. All it takes is some co ordination and tactics to kill a tamer. But one thing i do agree with is that tamers do become that bit overpowered with a Rune beatle/mare combo, and thank fook that doesnt exist in RPPvP lol. As soon as you see that "All Kill" without a mount, your already dead....

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#58
Coppelia

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Funnily, you start by "no no my hellcats are very powerful", you develop by "I rarely see anything more than the grass and the dirt" and finish by "tamers are not overpowered".
As I was saying previously, in a battle (not duel), if tamers are harming your army, your tactics are very wrong. It's easy to seperate the tamer from his/her pets. You can focus on the tamer so the pets aren't a danger anymore. You can also, and that's what can't get in the mind of "RP" PvPers who are doing a template and then create the RP around, use a skill called Peacemaking. Peace the pets and the tamer can go home. How hard is that?

Esca, I won't accuse you of powergaming or whatever. I don't know if you took a look at the hellcats graphics in 3D or KR, but it's not the kind of "pet" you hug and tickle. Personally if I saw one IRL I'd puke. So... it's not a "pet" for everybody. You got to be seriously deranged to fall in love of those creatures.
But what's left for other tamers? Seriously from what I've seen frenzies are not a great threat. My white wolves may hit fast but the damage output is ridiculous and I don't speak about their resists. It hardly does more than a distraction in battle.
I don't know, for sure I don't want to see a mare + rune beetle combo. But I don't know we could try something else.

It's just a bit frustrating to be reduced to 100 skill points (Magery) and have PvP builds act tough and you just have to shut it up, thinking that your character who spend so much time with unicorns, write songs about dragons etc, could as well snap her fingers and a loyal dragon would dive from the sky to dispatch the braggart's bowels along the road. But no, you just have to say "ok I'm the civilian victim" with a character who's living in the wild and comes back to town only to tell adventures tales, against the local (rude) guard.


For 120 scrolls, if you find difficulties with a 120ish warriors, that's against other 120ish warriors. There's a moment, if you don't hit enough, you don't kill. Whatever your entrance combo is.
I know I'm not a professional PvPer and all, but just by letting the toons hit themselves you see the difference.

#59
Escaflowne/Balgus

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There are loads of great pets tamers can use, grizzerly bears, giant ice worms ( i have a pair), hellhounds, dire wolves, frenzied ostards, lava lizards (just got myself a pair)and frost spiders are okay and theres probaly a few more.
Yes yes there are many tactics for enermies to use in battle to take down a tamer which meant i used to see the dirt alot, but then i said recently i have devised new tactics that stops me from dieing quite alot and then im free to get on with killing and so forth. I was clearly stating tamers are strong when used in the right hands and not overpowered, but if you start to give them all these newer and stronger pets, then they will become overpowered, i mean what other pets are there, there next weakest is a drake, and then after that its all the high end pets like dragons,mares,kirins and so forth.

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#60
Vierna

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I’m not sure whether we have drifted a little off topic here. As I said previously, whether Archers or Tamers or whatever is perceived to be overpowered is not the real issue. The real issue is the crazy templates that do not fit the characterisation AND the PvP scripters. In my opinion those players are just downright lame. Unless you’re out taking on Pkers on Felucca there is absolutely no need to be scripted. And the blame for it lies at the door of us GM’s who make no attempt to stop it. Lets get rid of crazy combo templates and stop the scripting, then maybe the Rpers will return.

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