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[OOC] Current State of Roleplaying

- - - - - current ooc roleplaying state

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28 replies to this topic

#1
dilvid

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Hi all,

Let me start by explaining where I'm coming from. I have never roleplayed in UO but have in other MMORPGS and I have done the original roleplaying of D&D etc. Right thats a little bit of background out the way.

I am/was interested in starting a roleplaying character, I done some research on the various guilds on my shard (Europa) and looked at each of the websites and took some pointers on how RP seems to work on UO. Let's just say I was completly shocked. It seems that the RP in this game isn't RP at all. It's just a lot of people that like to say they RP (and by RP I mean they talk with an accent and emote expressions). Why are all the RP rules so (in need of a better word) stupid.

With the current set of RP rules there are so many variations of characters which can't be roleplayed succesfully of which most are evil characters.

You can roleplay a theif (maybe only stealing out of the yellow bag) but boy will some people moan. You can't roleplay assasins (which would be extremly fun) as stealth is redundant as you have to alert the person that you are about to attack that your about to attack.

By assasins I don't mean you just go out and attack any orange you can find I mean true roleplay as in one guild hires the assasins guild to perform a hit on a rival guild. Rumors spread on noticeboards in RP towns etc (this takes care of notification) so then the 'hit' knows whats going on and can maybe carry an engraved box as proof of the succesfull hit. That type of thing is fun to do and opens up the game.

There are a few guilds I spotted while looking round which I couldn't tell if they were RP guilds or not. Some things were bad character names, bad equiptment (neon robes, neon weapons and equiptment which doesn't suit their role). I'm not going to mention guild names etc but one of the guild I found which was meant to be a roleplaying guild had the complete incorrect karma for what they try to RP and armor which that style of character would not have access to. I won't get started on the amount of people with powerscrolls. You don't allow magic weapons but you allow powerscrolls :? .

I really think their needs to be a rethink of the RoE. Some of the rules on their are great, some need a rethink and are plain silly. The poisoning one is one that sticks in my head the most. This shouldn't be skills based, this should be background based. Characters with this style of play should be allowed to use it no matter what. Think of this in real life terms, I wouldn't know poison from pepsi (until after I drank it :P) but I'm sure with enough money I could find someone who does.

A new RoE really does need drawing up. Let's open the game to all side's of RP.

#2
WarderDragon

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I have never personally played on the Europa Shard or have been involved in their style of roleplaying (complete with their RoE and restrictions), but it is my understanding that these rules and regulations probably came about as a reaction to past abuses and issues that have probably sprung up over the years. These rules are certainly a strong inconvinience to creative roleplayers such as myself, but they are there to help that roleplaying community function and thrive. They obviously work, because Europa has come to be Ultima Onlines premiere roleplaying shard, and many other servers have modeled themselves in some ways on Europa's foundations.

Now, that is not to say that Europa's RP Rules & Regulations are necessarily perfect, or that I agree with them. I have roleplayed for years on Baja, and the roleplay that has traditionally occured on our shard would probably make the average Europa roleplayer balk. Ours is very freeform and open. It has allowed for a certain level of unbridled creativity and almost complete player freedom, but it can also lead to other issues that may inadventantly arise - and roleplaying on Baja hasn't exactly thrived because of those issues. There has never been a restriction on what items can and cannot be used in confrontations - pretty much anything goes. Just about any type of character can be created - from the lowly serf and the peasant to those who claim to be Lord British's son/daughter, half daemons/dragons, so on and so fourth.

My opinion would be to speak with the roleplaying community on your Shard - contact the (more or less) heads of the Europa Roleplaying Community at CoRE (Community of Roleplayers; Europa). Express your concerns in a respectful manner, and seek to come to some sort of compromise. I doubt they are out to ensure that you cannot play your character type - they just want to ensure that problems do not arise that could threaten their preffered type of roleplay.

If that does not work, then take a peek at some of the other shards. Catskills is considered the second to Europa in terms of roleplay. Siege Perilous, Lake Superior, and Chesapeke all seem to have small but thriving communities. On Baja, the Baja Roleplaying & Event Alliance is attempting to ressurect roleplaying there, while still maintaining the freeform style that has always suited the Baja Community.

* * *

Also, just to address a few others things you mentioned.

Itemization has always been a significant problem for Ultima Online, especially since the advent of Age of Shadows. We roleplayers attempt to form a look based on our needs, but sometimes are forced to throw something togeather to fit their needs. If not that, sometimes someone might actually develop a look that might be meant to represent something, even if it doesn't look absolutely perfect - you might see a Knight wearing an Obi or Leather Ninja Belt to represent a Sash or Belt. I have a certain character on Baja who I have attempted to model after a fantasy character I really like, but it doesn't look perfect and some of the pieces look absolutely mismatched (and look completely wrong in the KR client).

Also, while karma should be considered when roleplaying, it should be generally ignored in a roleplaying setting. You might have passing knowledge of a characters reputation, but their actual "alignment" is not sitting there, flashing like a neon light over their head. A generally honorable and chivalrous Knight might have negative karma rating for slaying someone who threatened innocents in Felucca. Perhaps an explanation might be that, although he had every intention of performing an action in the defense of the weak and helpless, his actions might have reflected a poor light on him, causing rumors and lies to be spread about him.

Sometimes you just have to toy with the game mechanics and the lore. Ultima Online provides an excellent medium for roleplay, but sometimes you have to play with it and ignore some of the flaws to make the experience enjoyable.

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#3
dilvid

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Thanks for the reply. I understand where you are coming from with regards to the equiptment and attaining a look which would suit your role but some of the characters I saw are beyond this. The one character I saw wore full plate armor which for the role they have put themself into would not be possible. If I explain it as a beggar in full plate armor it may explain it better.

I went to the CoRE website first of all which hasn't been updated since April 06 so I gathered that site was no longer in use which is why I started a post to see if the direct community could help. The RoE on the website is different to the one being used currently, if the one that is on the website was active and being used I could like that one. I will take your advice and try to speak to the community on my shard to see if this can be taken any further, I still would like people to leave their opinion though to how they feel about the current state of RP.

#4
callumf

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Dilvid

Probably a better place to start/ask debate is here:

http://www.uoforums....play.php?f=1107

Thats the Europa RP Forum for ooc discussions.

The ROE have been developed over years of negotiation and compromise and testing. They aren't perfect nor ever will be but the vasdt majority of warred guilds agree to their use - with a few exceptions and variations.

Take the debate over to Europa and you will get a lot more help and advice.
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#5
Gnomy

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Ohhh.... Gnomy will love to help :P

Move the thread there please.


About poisoning, Since it is the most OP'd skill around for warriors and everyone and their lefthand got poisoning it was needed to change it to skillwise.. even tho many got poisoning as skill to be able to kill/defend themself.

Powerscrolls... yes id like so see a wipe of all powerscrolls.

Many of the rules you've mentioned are there to prevent greifing.. Which happens now and then.. Since as you know from other games surely that many want to destroy for RPer.. They think we suck.. They forget that many of us that RP now come from PvP.

You will see oxymorons out there, like poor fella with plate shiny armor.. But then.. you dont know his background? Talk to him to find out more..

The karma/Fame in game mechanics ...I ignore all that till i know the char Im talking too.. Make my own opinion.

I'll gladly help if you got questions.. If its a rant.. Then ill give you hell as only a Gnome can do :)


Thank you for playing Ultima Online....

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#6
dilvid

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Ohhh.... Gnomy will love to help :P

Move the thread there please.


About poisoning, Since it is the most OP'd skill around for warriors and everyone and their lefthand got poisoning it was needed to change it to skillwise.. even tho many got poisoning as skill to be able to kill/defend themself.

Powerscrolls... yes id like so see a wipe of all powerscrolls.

Many of the rules you've mentioned are there to prevent greifing.. Which happens now and then.. Since as you know from other games surely that many want to destroy for RPer.. They think we suck.. They forget that many of us that RP now come from PvP.

You will see oxymorons out there, like poor fella with plate shiny armor.. But then.. you dont know his background? Talk to him to find out more..

The karma/Fame in game mechanics ...I ignore all that till i know the char Im talking too.. Make my own opinion.

I'll gladly help if you got questions.. If its a rant.. Then ill give you hell as only a Gnome can do :)


Thank you for playing Ultima Online....



Hey there,

If this thread can be moved to the Europa forum that would be great.

Thanks for the reply and I really understand the problems which can be had from taking out some of the RoE rules. I really don't want a rant, I think I would like to see true RP instead of half RP if you get me. I love the ideas that some of the people have come up with for their guilds but then they don't follow the agreed rules.

About the poisoning side of things, surely the RP mechanics will take care of it all. Evil characters use poison, evil RP characters are hated and avoided etc. If say the Lord of the Manor (good aligned character) uses poison in a duel (or simlair) then that is frowned upon and again that character looses out on some RP aspects. i.e People should now treat them differently dependent on how their persona reacts to the trickery used to winning the duel. Things like that are true RP. You currently don't allow the use of poison unless you can apply it yourself and have 70+ in the skill. The only thing that is stopping me from just going and buying a DP dagger is trust on both sides. This is all that is required again from allowing people with the correct backgrounds (evil aligned) using it without the skill.

The original rule set on the CoRE website which I am told the new ones are based upon allows alot more freedom and allows alot of these nice styles to be played. I think there surely should be a re-write of the RoE as currently is looks like it was wrote by one person (or many of the same type of person) that wanted all the best things for them/their style of play.

#7
Gnomy

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Sadly it aint that simple with poison.. Since so many char templates are now built to win...
But you are right that if a good guy uses poison he is frowned upon.. But there are so many... Semi good so to speak... they are a good with a hidden side of more evil.. / trader of illegal goods.. and yada yada...

poison is overpowered in the means, using a dagger with dp on.. you can hardly cure the DP and the target dies.. specially if you do lethalstrike and upgrade it one lvl more.. This results in everyone using it at any chance..

Sad but thats how it evolved... its all to win

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#8
callumf

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The ROE here : http://www.uoforums....ead.php?t=22961

Was designed/discussed by all the following guilds:

Tre – House of Tremere
Umb – Umbra
B^Y – Borough of Yew
-OH- - Order of Haven
RM – Royal Marksmen
VTC – Vesper Trading Company
LB – Britannia Guards
RoV – Renegades of Virtue
B^F – Brigands of the Fort
S-C- Spectral Court
DOT – Duchy of Trinsic
T^T – The Tribe
UD - Undead
SCT - Shadowcourt
A^K – Army of Kaldor
Srf - Serfs
Vlr - Valoria
CoR – CoRE utility Stone
Orc - Orc
KH – Knights Hospitaller
-V- - Vesper
E-V – Elven Guild
F^L - Floh'len d'Lloth

=)

So it wasnt just one person or playstyle but many persons and players!
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#9
dilvid

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Sorry, that is a list of guilds which have agreed to follow the RoE not a list of those envolved in creating it. It still states v1.0 at the top of the RoE which means no amendments have been made from the original post. If I am incorrect though (which I don't mind being) then I would like to find a way forward and maybe arrange talking about adjustments to the RoE. Some of the things which were on the CoRE RoE are missing from the one which was posted and this takes a huge chunk out of the RP game for alot of people.

#10
callumf

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Dilvid - it is a list of those guilds who discussed and created it AND agreed to follow it.

Some guilds decided after discussion to NOT follow it - does that make sense now?

And it has been under discussion ever since its inception.

If you would liek to see changes to the ROE I suggest you contact your GM and use that method to see the ROE changed.

Cheers.
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#11
dilvid

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With the post being edited I would presume it has been edited to add new guilds to the list. The RoE is still version 1.0 which means that has not been edited. To me this means some guilds have been added to the list AFTER the RoE has been agreed. If I'm honest now, you yourself have put me off the idea of roleplaying if the rest of the RP crowd are like you. The only way I can describe your view at the moment is 'blinkered'. Please lock this thread.

#12
Maddux

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My opinion of Europa Role Play is that it is one of the finest roleplaying communities I have had the pleasure rp'ing with. It's their community, their rules, and it works. I am not a member of any of the CORE guilds, but I have been welcomed with some spontaneous RP. Thank You.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


#13
callumf

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If I'm honest now, you yourself have put me off the idea of roleplaying if the rest of the RP crowd are like you. The only way I can describe your view at the moment is 'blinkered'. Please lock this thread.


Pardon me?

I am simply explaining how the ROE came about and who helped to design it and how one would go about trying to change it.

I am not blinkered in the slightest I am simply trying to give you some advice on how to get things changed and to put any misconceptions right.

I am completely mystified by your response and at a loss to see how you came to the above conclusions when I am simply TRYING to help you understand.
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#14
Gnomy

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Wow Dilvid...

Have you actually given it a try? Or are you tunnel viewed that you want the "fluffy-buffy-easy-mode-assasin-style-without-danger" If i put poisoning on a stealther, and jump up and like.. 2 hit people and let the poison kill them.. I feel good? Hell no.. Does the target feel good? Noo.. not likely. some people dont want to be killed - They dont enjoy your playstyle -simple-..

Dont worry though, there is lots of fights anyway since of Wars.

But have in mind - There are over 200 RPers out there which might... MAYBE have a slight different playstyle as you.. and these rules/guidelines are there to make it enjoyable for all.. Do belive me - We've had assasins(Even tho they are a bit harder to play -Takes more of the player) Hell we've had all kinds of char and it has worked out..

I dislike many of these rules in the RoE, ive learned to work around them or with them to get my RP style to work..

But always remember - You are not alone!

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#15
Henry Winter B^F

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Dilvid, sorry but half of what you say is rubbish. You obviously don’t even know the facts as you state that those guilds use it, but didn’t make it, which as Callumf said is wrong.

I've role played a bad guy character for years {Henry Winter}; he is a brigand so not totally evil, but still not a good guy. We have for years had assassins and thief’s in B^F and its worked fine. For assassinations it just takes a little OOC politeness, respect and communication and most people won’t mind being jumped on with no warning between an agreed time period....

I personally have a thief character and though people do moan, as long as you follow RoE {steal anything inside the yellow bag, if they don’t have one take anything you like from their pack as it's their fault for not using a yellow bag}, they cant really say anything.

Playing real evil, necroes, undeads, orcs and such can be allot harder these days but only because the role play community is soo tiny. In the old days evil was easier to play if you had a dedicated GM like Saktoh {severed headz orcs} leading.

The RoE is not perfect, but it is the accumulation of many, many years of different group’s rules {CoY, CoRe, ERPA} and in my view, generally works well for us.

There are reasons behind every part of the current RoE, for example poisoning. If we allow anyone to use poison at any level guilds like B^F, VTC and Orcs would be full of poison users, which would totally unbalance any combat we engage in, to our favour. And btw it's not about trust, it's the Gms responsibility to keep an eye on which members are using skills they do or don’t have the right to use. So you see, there are good, well thought out and debated reasons behind every part of the RoE.

Please, it sounds allot like your laying into our community without really trying it out and jumping to many conclusions without having full knowledge of what you speak about.

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#16
dilvid

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I understand about the poisoning and reason behind the rule in the RoE. When Gnomy explained(thank you Gnomy) that there could be people with the 'hidden' evil side that made that part click.

I've actually been roleplaying with some random people (various guilds in the list on the RoE) for the past week or so and get along fine with the RoE. Im not after "fluffy-buffy-easy-mode-assasin-style-without-danger" hehe. I know that there is danger in playing that style. Im not looking to only play that style. Im just confused that the RoE is based off the one from the CoRE website yet various things are missing from it. Have they been taken out on purpose? Have they been left out by accident?

@Henry: Thank you for your advice. From looking at the RoE currently it looks like you cannot do assisinations etc. Imagine the scene Evil Player sneaks up in stealth to Target, because of the RoE he has to alert the player that he is about to attack. He shouts something at the Target the Target runs off thats the end. Now I know your meant to give them a chance to run which is why I thought of a way to give notification but allow the hidden aspect still which is the 'Rumors' boards I have been seeing. If a rumor is posted on the board it will hopefully give notification to the Target to then decide if he wants to participate or not. Thus giving him a chance to say no and then it the 'hit' is called off. This is fine and seems to suit the RoE on the CoRE website but not the RoE on this website. If I am wrong and this is allowed under the RoE then please let me know and I would be a very happy person. I enjoy the RP aspect of the game and would love to get more into it.

Just to make it clear aswell I didnt mean that all the guilds on the RoE only agreed to follow it, I know for a fact that some of the guild there wrote it aswell. What I am saying is basically that some of the guilds there must of been made after the RoE was created (over a year ago) and appear on that list of signing guilds.

Im not after an argument guy's, I'm jsut curious to how certain aspects have come about and why they were changed from what I think (correct me if Im wrong) the original RoE (on CoRE website).

Thanks.

#17
Henry Winter B^F

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The CoRe RoE is the old rules that most guilds used for many years {Grd and a couple others didn’t use it}. The gms all got together and decided to try and make a rule set that everyone could use. Everything was argued over, talked over then argued over some more and most guilds agreed to use our current RoE {parts taken from both CoY's Laws of war and CoRes RoE}.

And to clarify most guilds are not CoRe members, they simply used to use the CoRe RoE. CoRe is only DoT, E-V, LB {I think}, RM, F^L.

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#18
dilvid

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The CoRe RoE is the old rules that most guilds used for many years {Grd and a couple others didn’t use it}. The gms all got together and decided to try and make a rule set that everyone could use. Everything was argued over, talked over then argued over some more and most guilds agreed to use our current RoE {parts taken from both CoY's Laws of war and CoRes RoE}.

And to clarify most guilds are not CoRe members, they simply used to use the CoRe RoE. CoRe is only DoT, E-V, LB {I think}, RM, F^L.


Ahh thank you very much. One other question. The guilds waring status, does every guild more or less war every other RP guild? Or is their specific reasons behind each guild other ones are at war with? Not too sure if the War status is to allow parts of roleplay (attacking possibly, stealing etc) or if it is part of the background of the guild?

#19
Henry Winter B^F

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Most guilds have orange {war} status so can be attacked. But there needs to be a valid role play reason behind attacking someone. Trinsic taking part in an official war with Vesper for example, or a brigand mugging a serf.

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#20
dilvid

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Thanks again Henry. As a GM of a guild yourself, does the assisination style which I described sounds like it fits in the RoE?





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