Again, it is for a court to establish the "fact" that wiretapping was done illegally. All the news media can do is frame the issue in as negative a light as possible to ensure maximum embarrassment to the administration. At last report, both Verizon and BellSouth were disputing USA Today's claim that they permitted NSA access to citizens' records, and Michael Hayden in his CIA confirmation hearing has disputed USA Today's account, as well.

As for the Patriot Act - - It is a law, and laws in this country are proposed and voted on by the two houses of Congress. The Patriot Act was passed overwhelmingly by both houses (Republican AND Democrats) and signed by the President. Recently the Patriot Act came up for renewal, and after the usual political grandstanding by both parties, was renewed. The Patriot Act is not an act of tyranny concocted by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the board members of Halliburton, Inc., although I'm fairly certain that's what you think it is. :shocked:

Please be aware of this: if (gods forbid) a Democrat is elected President again, and Congress goes to a Democrat majority, then the CIA, the NSA, Patriot Act, etc., will all be under their control. Have Democrats ever abolished the CIA? The NSA? Is it likely that they will rescind the Patriot Act? Probably not, because those institutions and laws are as useful to Democrats as they are to Republicans.

The Patriot Act is not an act of tyranny concocted by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the board members of Halliburton, Inc., although I'm fairly certain that's what you think it is.

That's the second time you have tried to be offensive. Please keep it civil?

What it boils down to is Bush is a figurehead. He is a puppet on a string, and several people are yanking him about. That's not just Bush, that is any president.

Again, it is for a court to establish the "fact" that wiretapping was done illegally. All the news media can do is frame the issue in as negative a light as possible to ensure maximum embarrassment to the administration. At last report, both Verizon and BellSouth were disputing USA Today's claim that they permitted NSA access to citizens' records, and Michael Hayden in his CIA confirmation hearing has disputed USA Today's account, as well.

Agreed. Is there a court investigating currently? I have not heard recent news if so. If you have any links, I would love to look at them.

Rest assured.

Generalization and opinion.

I just mentioned Michael Hayden's confirmation hearing, which is the equivalent of a court convened by Congress. Does that suffice? No? How about:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/17/news/companies/att/

or:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/16/news...izon/index.htm

I'm trying to keep this civil, but I find being required to back up my statements with links to be offensive, since it implies dishonesty on my part. Please notice I am not requiring you to do the same.

Ok, ok, just on the wire-tapping fear or acceptance real quick...

There are billions upon billions of phone calls made, how many people do you suppose are listening in? I have a better chance of winning powerball than my call being tapped.

Not going to quote 'cause I'm not 100% sure, but I thought I read or heard they only listen to the first 30 seconds of any phone conversation they listen to, how many times have you heard an ENTIRE conversation by someone (or someone listening to yours) on a cell phone in the public, and how many other people were around?

No, I am not calling you a liar. I was genuinely curious. If I ever call someone a liar, they will certainly know it.

How so? The government here is set up in three branches, so no one man can have absolute power. Yes, Bush has made some mistakes, and I don't really care for him. He did not, however, make all those mistakes totally alone. We also have the congress and the senate who are a part of the government. Not to mention how many advisors, homeland security, FBI, CIA, and who knows who else is in the mix.

Opinion came in calling the President a figurehead and a puppet on a string. Generalization was saying that any president is jerked around like a puppet on a string. Probably no one would say that of Franklin Roosevelt or Harry Truman, to name just two. And speaking of Truman, Bush has a way to go yet to match the 22% approval rating that Truman suffered at the lowest part of his presidency. These days Truman is admired for his honesty, courage and forthrightness. It will take twenty years (and possibly worse presidents) before we have a more informed view of Bush, not filtered through the lens of partisanship.