First off, Deraj.. Your signature lines are most appropriate to this discussion, I think.

It's good to see sensible discussion of the good and not so good we have seen and are seeing. I do hope that UO pulls a rabbit out of it's hat and brings back the enthusiasm for us. As you all have said, that does not come from more gimmicks added. I enjoyed myself far more mining in Delucia to become GM, than anything I do now. That is why I still go to Delucia to mine when I log in. It is one of the most satisfying parts of the game for me.

I remember how disappointed I was when suddenly my hard earned GM status was worth almost nothing to me. I remember the let down that came when my GM crafted armor was worthless and the skills I had worked so hard to gain meant so little. It still galls me that because of the 'ore farming' done by greedy non gamers, my valorite, verite and Agapite all 'break' when I smelt them until I get only 2 ingots out of 20 large ore and that my GM Smith needs to be 'legendary' to have more than a 5% chance of making some platemail. But I kept playing and trying out some of the new things. I have enjoyed that they added gems to mining and the new woods, although the hues of the woods are a bit much.... It really is a sad thing though, I especially feel it since I read your 'rant' and the comments, how many folks are gone who made the game great. The atmosphere is not companionable anymore. I don't do a lot of hunting and I have never even been in Doom or any of the " new' dungeons... no desire to go there. It's more a mob scene than anything, at least the times I watched my son in law there it was. I like my daily plodding life and killing some ettin or orcs now and then. I like mining and I like killing cows and shearing sheep and making my tailored items.

I even GMd cooking when it appeared cooking would be useful again. Boy were we wrong there. Now I can cook, and we can't eat. As someone said.. and I paraphrase... the inconsistencies are rampant .. A nice neat plan that doesn't make useless what you have worked for, good crisp graphics and friendly interfaces.... is that too much to hope for?

There was an orc once on Europa who just seemed to fit in everywhere.

Long live Gorbash.

He was a part of a guild named the Darkcloaks,who sadly dont play UO anymore.

yes its hard these days to roleplay,but we do what we can, and try to make it as good an experience as we can.

Here lies a issue that bugs the tar out of me... not you per se' but the SE land mass did exist in the original Sosarian world that RG created along with elves, dwares and fussies or something (halflings) .. in the original world.. later down the road RG dropped it all to focus on the HUMAN aspect.... but they were in fact at one time part of the Ultima world..

What is wrong is the execution, but that has been a problem forever and a day with EA.. great ideas then they boff it when they put it in game..

When UO went beta the first time the majority of the testers were diehard ultima fans, roleplayers.. elves were asked for heavily then... they were asked for constantly in the first year... There was a heavy presence of elven rpers on most shards in the begining whom dealt with using the human paperdoll and avatar..

EA messed up with the introduction of the elf deal in ML in that there are hardly any rpers left.. so the reasoning behind the elven only gear is beyond the majority of players grasp. The elven racial traits, nighsight and the mana pool deal have not impacted the game as much as was cried about when the stats were first shared with the community..the gear bit is still a thorn and its mainly due to EA not being bright enough to add human gear that matched the elven gear in mods and such...

With the SE expansion, they (EA) dropped the ball in execution of the land...
for one thing the new SE house tiles should have been restricted to the SE land mass..as the AOS tiles should have been restricted to Malas.. the old lands should have been restricted to the classic housing..

Least then there would have been a obvious distinction to where you were..defined atmosphere....

Too many in todays UO only care about loot... getting the gold and uber loot... and EA has catered to that view tooo much and tooo often..EA has tried to market UO to widely.. they have turned the focus market into the asian market and tossed the original one away..money talks so they say..

EA has even stated at one point that the aisian players didnt like which is why what ever the item was wasnt being intro'd or being changed or what ever it was but it was due to the asian market not likeing it or maybe it was that THEY wanted it...

I have no issue in why something cant remain the same... I dont see a need to keep up with the jones.. I see nothing wrong with a game being one that has a small niche in the market...I see no reason for UO to have wandered so far from RGs vision and his dream...

Its about money sadly and I dont believe KR is going to bring in the masses... content.. game play... are what true gamers want... those that will dedicate themselves to a game, a world.. those that whine about graphics tend to be ship jumpers... soon as a new eye candy game comes out off they go and crow about how great it is... then when the next flashy game comes out there they go to that one and once more crow about how great it is..

Community... Nothing in UO or in its changes have done anything to destroy it.. people will form communities if they want to, if they have the desire no matter where it calls home.. It was wrong in how trammel was introduced as it slapped the faces of everyone that put their all into making UO what RG had dreamed of.. but that did not destroy the communities of each shard.. the people did.. the change in wants...

Long before UO was even a concept, there was a online game on AOL.. called Never Winter Nights.. a D & D based game.. a turn based game.. the avatars were just a pile of sprites, blocky and such.. and the only time you saw them or anyone elses avatars were if you were in a combat area.. otherwise as you walked around the towns or in the wilds you just saw character names pop up here and there... only 500 folks could be in the game at a time and folks lined up for hours on end to get in... folks new everyone that played it.. it had a community that UO never even came close to having in UOs hey day...its not the game, its the people... players today have grown up on consoles... not board games nor with the old face to face pen and paper role playing games... no interaction other than I kicked your arse dude... as cosoles for the most part have only one goal... win win win at all costs.. which is what you have seen in UO for some time now..

Graphics do not provide community... they do not provide a living world.. the people do..

babbled and rambled enough for this morning and the kids are wanting dunkin donuts soooooo...

UO was on the road to a virtual world in the early days... but EA tossed that aside in order to appeal to the masses... to folks that didnt care about Sosaria nor about roleplaying... EA cares about money.. the quick buck... and KR is nothing more as the problems that have existed for too long in UO still exist and will continue to exist...

Peace

An awesome post Ziggy Stardust,and i think you have nailed it all well and truly on the head.

Hail Ziggy.

Again, this is not an issue I care to argue, as for me, it would be the equivalent of beating a dead horse. However I will say this: I will understand and accept your perspective that elves were present in the original three Ultimas if you accept my perspective that there were absolutely *no* traces of elves or dwarves or any of the other inconsistent races in the later Ultimas. Shake?

I agree. All of a sudden, there was this giant tree filled with elves. Where is this tree? And why did we not notice it before? As for the housing suggestion, the idea has merit but I have no doubt there would be a lot of people complaining that they bought an expansion but didn't have access to whatever tiles that expansion introduced because their one established home is in a different land. All in all it's a tricky issue.

Here is where I'll have to disagree. Dismissing game design as a component in community development is a mistake, and one I think we have paid dearly for. There were many elements that used to exist in this game that nurtured community aspects. For example, remember when a crowd existed around the Britain Smithy? That is something bad game design has destroyed, and something that will never come back unless the game is changed to accommodate that "feature".

Even pre-Trammel had its own unique bonuses to community (as well as plenty of detrimental aspects, that I don't dispute)

And one thing I'd like to point out is that with the continuous move towards a single-playerish type of game, that removes in many ways the need to "group up" or depend on other players; this too is detrimental to community.

And finally, I'd like to say that there is no way community could ever be wiped out... as you said, where there's people, there's community. However if you dismiss the idea that design is just one of several components to it, then you're dismissing a lot.

Great posts guys.

I really do think the only way "back" is if Richard Garriott is hired back or whoever was incharge of running the show back then. The people who run it now just don't share the same vision unforutently.

I'm not sure about the cash issue though. Correct me if I'm wrong though but at around the LBR days just before AOS, UO was, and always was up to that point, very strong. I'm not sure if WoW was already out. Why the major changes? Surely, they had enough cash at the time? The population was very strong.

Deraj

anytime someone brings up elves it obviously not a dead horse... *smiles*

People will be people no matter the medium they are interacting with...it is the person and people involved in that medium that make or break any community that may exist or may create.. there are plenty of MUDs still that have communities in the context of that games world.. that have just text to use to build their imaginations with

On LS one of the earliest communities was Tel'Ruid created by the elven guild "the grey company" aka TGC and it wasnt created because of PKs or other twits, but because of the desire to have a town.. a elven village in the world the characters lived in...to have a virtual community, it still exists, it survived the move to trammel even.. its not as populated as the early days but it still exists and there are still folks who are dedicated to it it survives because there are players who still have the desire to do so...

Suppose this is a view that not many hold and will find everything under the sun to place blame on as the cause of destruction other than where it belongs.. on the players.

People are in general and for the most part the cause of many things, especially in UO.. our actions have caused EA to do many things even if EA reacted in the incorrect way of resolving the actions of the players.. we are still the cause....at least in the past

Now.. EA is ...... dont know what to say about them and KR still...

I don't dispute what you say; in the very end, when it comes right down to it, it's the people that make or break a community. Agreed 100%.

However, consider this: I could plant a flower in a less-than-suitable environment, a habitat which is not at all optimal for the flower's growth, and yet, with some effort and perseverance, help that flower to grow with careful care. Yet, if I planted this same flower in a far more optimal environment, it would require less effort on my part; in other words, it could conceivably grow on its own, naturally.

People will work hard to maintain communities, and these are the strong communities, but when a community breaks down, it can be especially difficult to An Corp it, so to speak. And this goes especially for some communities that relied on systems that, over time, have been downgraded, neglected, or removed. Kudos to the Grey Company for surviving the ages. Kudos to Crossroads of Yew, even, for striving to maintain their preAOS ways in a postAOS world. They have my undying respect.

*Chuckles*
Nay sir I speak not of the subject but of the debate itself. For anyone that has read my old arguments on elves in past times would perhaps groan if I were to open my mouth to such a debate again.

Well I dont believe that UO necessarily needs RG back. Don't get me wrong it would be nice to have him back. UO just needs a visionary period. Someone who can re-invent the world and create the vision of the players, not the vision of corporate greed.

Wow. If I were depressed right now I might quit UO after reading your assessment. But I likely would come back quickly.

I agree with most of what you say. But I play UO differently than most and I can have fun (so far) with whatever they throw at us. But if the graphics of KR (thank you Adam for the videos) do not greatly improve during the beta I will likely not play KR and stick to 2D. I have only seen glimpses of the UI briefly but that does not concern me as much as the fuzzy images of the game.

We shall see.