Please let me know who is using Chivalry in the guild. There was a question brought up about the use of it and the connection to the relationship between Tremere and the history of Naeloth. If you use that skill let me know. Thank you.

Chivarly should be banned, it has absolutly NO PLACE in a Vampiric order.

What if it was stolen to fight the paladins who obviously killed the vampires? Eh? Eh?

Not guilty.

Ripper use it for travelling and healing. i think it is what you make out of it. if you use it for bad things? it is just like a item to use. we are seeking for wisdom, take the best and use it for your targets.

We are looking at a few different problems all wrapped up in one:

1) Tremere = magic users
2) Chivalry = UO magic form
3) Chivalry = historical code of knightly behavior (of which there are many forms, not only the courtly love version)
4) Definitions of vampires (vampiric orders) vs chivalric definitions and why would a vampire would be a knight type.
5) Why would Tremere use chivalry..
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1& 2) Guild stuff
Tremere is supposed to be a guild of primarily magic users.... not warriors/knights, although we seem to have gained a few along the way.

Chivalry, by classical definition is of course a way of behaving. However, in the UO utilization/game mechanics, it is a form of magic. Please remember that if debating a UO skillset which is only a magic form which many use, in this aspect it is only a name. Some spells in it like "close wounds" can sound vampy enough for us (rapid healing) enemy of one is ok too. Others are questionable.

As long as chivalry is viewed as a magic form, ie game mechanics, I see no reason why not to use the ability. The historical behavioral definitions is another thing. As noted in the Tremere ruleset, abilities that are "out of the ordinary" should be discussed within the guild as to the IC reason why a character has it.

However, if it is because Tremere as a guild is going the Knightly Way, then that is against the purpose of Tremere which was set up originally as a magic using guild (of predominantly vampires). Studying chivalry the magic form is however ok.



3 & 4 ) "History stuff":

Regarding Chivalry, there isn't only the issue of courtly love and virtures, the definition per country and time period is different although one thing is usually common. Chivalry usually refers to a code of behavior for knights:

So even in the Wikipedia (gotta love that), these are listed as Chivalric codes:

"There were several lists written down during the Middle Ages. One example code can be found in the book Chivalry by 19th century French historian Leon Gautier:[3]

Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
Thou shalt defend the Church.
Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
Thou shalt love the country in which thou wast born.
Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil. "

Keeping to historical notes, Mr Vampire himself, Vlad Dracul did not turn from God after the death of his wife. That's Hollywood. It is said that historically Vlad renounced the Orthodox faith and adopted Catholicism; and some say that Vlad theoretically went and built a church . oh yeah, and don't forget Vlad was a KNIGHT! In a fancy Order of the Dragon type thing. Additionally he was considered a "defender of the faith" during that time, protecting Christianity from Islam.

He just had some rather strict ways with dealing with criminals and enemies.... Don't forget that he very much defended his people from invaders... (ahem.. but had this little tendency to like torture impaling etc.. )

"according to an excerpt from the "The Slavonic tales about Dracula the Voivode" about Vlad: "And he hated evil in his country so much that, if anyone committed some harm, theft or robbery or a lye or an injustice, none of those remained alive. Even if he was a great boyar or a priest or a monk or an ordinary man, or even if he had a great fortune, he couldn't pay himself from death."

so Give it a thought... Our dear Mr. Dracula, Hollywood vampire.. well.. seems he was a knight.... hmmmmm...

For example: are knights 100% immune to being turned into a vampire? I don't think so... so many "accidents" can happen on a battlefield... However, what s/he has retained from that is up to question...

ICly of course, I leave it to people to decide how they will react to issues with the good-good types. (or take for example, perhaps said chivalric knight can have many funny bloopers with chivalry gone "wrong" or "just not working quite right/~fizzle~" due to his/her new state)
Game mechanics is of course a different story.


5) Tremere? Using Chivalry?

As mentioned above, if viewed only as the skillset, I don't see a problem with it. If seen as a magic form, I don't see a problem with it. If seen as why would a vampire be a Knight? I don't see a problem with it.

So sorry. I will not agree that knighthood has no place in vampiric orders, nor will it be absolutely forbidden for our guild (see the historical notes above).

However, since being a Knight is not exactly what Tremere as a guild is about, I will ask restraint in using chivalry for the time being especially until those people with the question have been contacted. This is not an "ok everyone run out and get it" sign.




(As an additional point regarding skillsets, Please also refer to our section regarding necromancy which I'm sure that several of you also forget!!!

Also please remember that even though we use the name Tremere, and very loosely base some things off of VTM we do not base everything off of it. We considered several other sources including some historical ones (and some things with UO game mechanics) when creating the guild rulesets and also left some things open to interpretation on purpose because dependant on country and lore, things can differ.. one classic example is the Chinese hopping vampire vs the Bram Stoker type vampire. )

Lets go through the list of Chivarly spells in Ultima Online.

1.) Close Wounds - An arguement for this could be Vampiric regeneration. Would Spirit Speak not achieve this better?

2.) Cleanse By Fire - Last time i checked, Vampires weren't great lovers of fire

3.) Enemy of One - No problem with this, but it IS an utterly useless spell in anything other than PvM

4.) Dispel Evil - Again, useless spell. Also aren't Vampires of an Evil alignment?

5.) Remove Curse - Great spell, but Karma dependant. This means for it be effective you must have good karma, i dissapprove of this. (and we can just use apples for this spell)

6.) Sacred Journey - Wraith Form / Megery / Recall Scrolls

7.) Noble Sacrifice - Silly Spell, you're not gonna reduce yourself to 1hp to rez someone who can't RP for 30mins.

8.) Consecrate Weapon - Handy spell, but the word 'Consecrate' sounds a bit too Holy for my liking

9.) Divine Fury - See above, replace Consecrate with Divine

10.) Holy Light - Not even allowed in the ROE i believe.


So there we have it, Chivalry is a silly skill. Lets all embrace the darkside instead.

Noble Sacrifice could be used to emulate "turning" or such things. And btw, one of the most frequent requests Tre gets from other guilds is help with removing curses. This has been consistent over several years now.

As I said, some spells are OK, others are questionable, as you also pointed out above. Yes there are plenty of other alternate means to some of the spells, but that is the personal choice of the player.

Besides it being a silly skill, there is not enough reason to outright ban it from the guild. With appropriate use of imagination, it can be used (or "not used") in IC ways. Just because one person doesn't like it is not enough.

If you like I can go through each and every spell in each type of magic, as well and give reasons why we would or wouldn't use it and consequences thereof, and set down an extensive bunch of rules for Tremere on each one, but that will end up with hours of rules lawyer mongering and less fun in game. And it may also result in the majority of the guild being dismissed from the guild for not obeying rules or having inappropriate types of characters for the guild if we decide to get more strict on these. (Remembering, the original intention was to have a mage's type guild...)

It may even also dismiss outright other lore versions from other cultures. Every person has a different view on how vampires should and shouldn't behave, as well as a personal background history (such as we do have some turned/dark knight and paladin types oddly enough), and we wanted to leave enough room for those issues. Just as we opened the doors for certain non-Tremere vamps to also be in the guild. But that is another issue.

Let me also say, our ruleset as well as several other rulesets and skillsets were put up for discussion some time ago, but due to the dismal lack of input from the guild members (ie almost none). The discussion had been left up for a very long time until the crash of f4g and then it was reposted on the new private boards when we moved to UOF (which oddly due to extreme lack of usage, we no longer seem to have a private board here anymore). Therefore, because of these issues as well, I am not banning the ability. Folks had plenty of opportunity to have input in it, which almost no-one did. Therefore what we have still stands.

I'm using this skill at the moment. I didn't begun my journey here with this skill, it was learned in my seek for answers and knowledge and also as an aid to protect Tremere.
I never considered that using any skill (this one included) could label me an evil or good character. My propose is not that. Being evil or good is not that simple, in my humble opinion there are allways two sides (at least) for each story.
Let's take a good and righteous knight that hunts dragons... Will the dragon consider him good? I don't believe so.
Considering the place of knights in the guild, this should be given some thought. I'm against changing the guild "type", but having some characters with this type of profile could be meaningfull... Like some type of elite guardians?
Also having some knights (by their name, not that they'll have any special skills) could prove usefull in some RP scenarios, I supose.

As a said earlier, this is only my opinion.

If a chivalrous manner is to become a bar to membership of Tremere, then the character of Fargo will have to step down.
Due to prolonged and frequent absences, for which I offer sincere apologies, I doubt he will be missed.