Digger McTaggart posts a pertinent question ,that I know many of us are awaiting clearer answers to.



Ok, this subject has come up often enough over the years...and it has been raised yet again on my home forum Oceania in this thread entitled:

Don't worry even the "best" of us do it.
Now obviously the initial post was a troll, aimed at people that use UO Wedding to play speech only macros at In-Game Weddings, Auctions, Player-run events and such, and making an attempt to liken the use of these apps to the use of other well known but not to be named or discussed "scripting" programs that we all know are highly illegal

Still it raises this issue again and since the EA Pro system has long gone, and there are several other UO tools now listed on Stratics that are not completely covered by the UOPro information from the EA Customer Support knowledge base, can we get some sort of Official & up-to-date clarification on the use of these tools in respect of the Terms of Service and policies regarding 3rd Party Apps, please?

Perhaps a worthwhile FoF question, Jeremy?? .

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GarthGrey made a good point,that

I'm just curious why you need clairification on the legality of software available for download on Stratics itself? Why would you think they would leave it up, if it wasn't legal to download and use?

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but as UONutt pointed out

Stratics is not EA. I was told by Mr. Tact in Chicago (introducing the 8th Anniv) that the ONLY legal 3rd party programs were: UOAssist and UOAM

He said if the ones listed on stratics were used, a player "probably" wouldn't be banned or suspended.

So - a further clarification from Jeremy at this time would be helpful.

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Adam also had something to say.

Stratics hosts an IRC channel for a popular freeshard, they know it's illegal, but they still host it.

Regarding the program(s) listed above, I Believe Wilki said they were ok in the past.

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Digger came back with.

Actually, I'm totally satisfied that any/all 3rd Party apps listed on Stratics are perfectly legal to use, however, if you read the post from the link, it's clear some others don't share that opinion and attempt to cast a doubt on using them.

And, if you read the actual Answer from EA on the subject, and take into account that there are many more apps listed on Stratics than are actually included in EA's UOPro list, then I suppose you have to concede that while they may well, and probably do, have tacit approval, it's not stated in black and white anywhere. It's left up to our individual interpretation to some extent.

I'd just like to see some sort of official recognition that EA Mythic understands the use that these apps are put to within the game and that, as far as they are concerned, they do not breach the spirit of the TOS.

I would be pretty annoyed if some GM ever actioned my account for using any of them, as was indicated by Petrify in his post on Oce forum, simply because they were/are not included in the list of UOPro utilities as posted on EA's site, given that that answer hasn't been updated in years and UOPro is years old anyway.

Plus, being accused of "scripting" at anytime by anyone, even if it's just a lame attempt at upsetting players, is always likely to be implied that you are using an illegal script, isn't it?

I just think an updated reply from EA Mythic is not too big an ask and would put to rest anyone's concerns here...including mis-informed GMs.

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Jeremy posted her reply as

The 3rd-party programs that are legal to use are all listed ] here - I think the article is fairly clear on the subject, actually.

E. Jeremy Dalberg
UO Community Coordinator
EA Mythic
www.uo.com


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NOPE,said Digger,that wont do.

It is NOT clear, if you read the entire answer it makes that vague statement about programs that do not alter the data stream or files as "generally ok"...hardly definitive and hence the reason for this post in the first place.

So, can/will you state which apps listed and/or promoted by Stratics are ILLEGAL?

Here's the list from Stratics Main Page, under the heading of "TOOLS & DOWNLOADS"


- Armor Calculator
- Barding Calculator
- BOD Calculator Smithing
- BOD Calculator Tailoring
- Character Database
- Color Charts
- Enhancing Armor
- Heptazane's Stump
- InsideUO
- UOScr
- UO Hue Editor
- Character Viewer
- Journal Converter
- MP3 Music
- Plant Crossing
- Potion Calculator
- PvM Damage Calc.
- SmithCalc
- Spawn Map Utility
- Stats Calculator
- Stratics Resources
- UOATranslator
- UO Auto-Map
- UO Bulk Order Deeds
- UO Vendor
- UO Wedding
- Wallpapers
- Xena's UO Utilities
- UO Curse Tool
- UO Macro Edit
- UO Magic Tool
- UO Time
- UO Home Owner
- UO Rudder
- UO Tamer

The list in the answer on EA Customer Support has not been updated in years. We all know the ones that it is clearly stated are legal, but what about all these other utilities, created long after UOPro was ceased??

If all these apps are, in fact, illegal and could result in action being taken against accounts if anyone uses them...then perhaps you need to instruct Stratics to remove any and all reference to them?
I would believe, as many others would, that any such apps listed on this fansite, albeit not an official EA Mythic site, would have tacit approval, if this is not the case, then I think you should state that clearly and not simply refer to a 5 year old(at least) ambiguous answer given before more than half of these tools were created.

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Doomsday Dragon agreed with Jeremy though.

Answer

Only these programs are permitted to be used with UO. If you don't see a program listed here, it is not approved for use with UO.

* UOAssist
* UO Auto-Map
* UO Calculator
* UO Curse Tool
* UO Journal Converter
* UO Magic Tool
* UO Spawn Map

Seems to be crystal clear to me...

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Whilst UOPodcasting.com agrees with Digger

From EA's Web Site: Programs such as ICQ, AIM, UO Trace, or any other program that runs independently of UO, and has no effect on the UO data stream or software are generally ok to use.

We are frequently asked about programs such as Multi-UO and some programs that automate macros in the game. Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO.



There in lye's the problem, the part bolded, it contradicts the previous statement about data stream modifcation as a criteria.

It leaves it up to the user to interupt, except if your interuptation does not align with EA's then they can use the bolded statement as a backup to taking action.

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UONutt also had the following to say

UONutt: Agreed. It's the "generally", seemingly "gray" area that I think we would like clarification on. Specificity is what I think is wanting here.(sic.)


and

It is interesting that a developer - in person - told me that the ONLY EA approved ones were UOAssist and UOAM.

Now the "new" info from the EA site - thanks Jeremy!

But yes - we still have questions reamaining!

I'll stop now - I get nit-picky

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Exactly replied Digger

Which is the entire point of this thread.

There are a heap of apps not included in that list that are used regularly and are downloadable from this site. If they are ILLEGAL, then say so plainly and clearly.

UORudder, been around for as long as I have played the game...going on for 7 years...that's ILLEGAL?
UOWedding is the classic example, it was obviously legal when used by Councillors to perform in-game weddings...when did it become ILLEGAL? There's no reference anywhere in the EA KB about it that I can find...yet if you read the info on the actual download page it states:

All it's features and functions are listed on the same page here: UO WEDDING


So Jeremy, is it ILLEGAL to use or not??

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Whilst awaiting Jeremy's clarificacation,UOPodcast posted
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The problem with that statement is, UO Councelors have not been around in aything but Japanese shards for years, so its authorisation for Councelors to me doesnt automatically carry over to the player base.

The second thing about the features listed on the page are these two:
1. Unattended Speech macros
2. It can trigger in game macroes... This would then put it in the same boat as Ghost Mouse.

Ghoust Mouse does not alter the data stream and can be used to automate speach and can also be used to automate in game macroes the same as UO Wedding claims.

Therefore that statement and the page hosted on Stratics does not give it automatic exception to the EA policy which clearly states "Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO"

Good luck getting any clear definition by EA, they have stated in the past the UOPRO program is unlikely to raised again.

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Jeremy's reply came swiftly in 4 mins


I don't see any possibility of exception in that statement - "Again, if it is not in the approved list of UO Pro programs, then it is not ok to use with UO." That's pretty blunt. No?

E. Jeremy Dalberg
UO Community Coordinator
EA Mythic
www.uo.com

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Living up to his nickname Digger dug harder



Yes it's blunt, and totally unhelpful...you have not answered the questions I asked about the listed apps on Stratics , nor have you stated whether UO Wedding,in particular, clearly at one time perfectly legal to use as attested by EA/OSI sanctioned Councellors for over 2 years, and then made available to the entire player base when the Councellor program was ceased is now ILLEGAL to use, have you?

If you don't know, then fine, say so and perhaps you might like to investigate it further on behalf of your subscribers.

It is a part of the answer you keep referring to and has been quoted here several times that there exists a non-specific reference to some apps being "generally ok to use"....what we would like to know is whether UOWedding, or in fact any of the apps listed on Stratics falls into that category?

Pretty simple really, and deserves more than a throw away line in similar fashion to your oft quoted "Soon" and "next week" throwaways, no?

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Any app that is not on the list I linked is NOT OK TO USE. I do not see UO Wedding on that list, therefore it is NOT OK TO USE. I'm not going to go through and list every app that's not on that list, because that would be silly. For convenience, here is the list of APPROVED apps:

# UOAssist
# UO Auto-Map
# UO Calculator
# UO Curse Tool
# UO Journal Converter
# UO Magic Tool
# UO Spawn Map

E. Jeremy Dalberg
UO Community Coordinator
EA Mythic
www.uo.com

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A brief post [ for once] came from Fayled Dhreams

Jeremy ...




I stand corrected ...

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In-game speech is part of the data stream - it gets sent to the servers and rebroadcast to other clients. Likewise macros. AIM, ICQ, etc don't interact with UO in any way, that's why they're used as examples of programs that don't interfere.

E. Jeremy Dalberg
UO Community Coordinator
EA Mythic
www.uo.com

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etrify,posted her thanks to Jeremy


Thank you Jeremy for proving me right in my original post. Tsk tsk to stratics for having links to illegal programs.

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and herrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre's Digger

That is nonsense, and if that's your flat interpretation, then you might as well ban 95% of Fishermen and players that run In-Game events in UO right now. Probably 75+% of players that run decent sized Vendor Malls as well.

That UOPro feature was discontinued around 1999-2000, so no other apps could possibly be added since, whether they meet the criteria or not...are you telling me that ALL the weddings held by approved councelors since they started using UOWedding in 1999, were done by using an ILLEGAL program? Should they have all been banned?

Your saying that no possible development of any apps whatsoever can ever be legal simply because they can't get added to a system that ceased to be 10 years ago?

Under your own terms of reference, namely that one outdated post, KR is ILLEGAL, especially in terms of altering/customising the UI by non-official EA Mythic personnel.
Reconcile that in reference to the UOPRo stance. Might as well try to reconcile the fact that by editing KR's xml files, anyone can modify the inferface and macros etc as well, but guess what, you call it a feature??? Go figure.

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UOPodcasting wonders

I wonder if Stratics will now ban themselves for promoting illegal programs

They should at least remove the illegal program links, just so they can be compliant with this masters.

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Heartseekers thoughts oin it all are

Sounds like someone doesn't like the answer.

It was stated that those programs are not legal.

Get over it; quit using illegal programs.

UO doesn't need a bunch of 3rd party apps.

Many people never even used UOAssist and they still did fine.

KR is a new client and not a third party program, so not sure where you are going with this.

Believe it or not, but there is people actually playing this game without everything being automated.

Petra agreed with that

Quoted for truth.

If you want to have pre-written stuff in UO, just make a macro, hit that say button then type in what you want. Theirs no need for those 3rd party programs.

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That amused Digger McTaggart somewhat

Lol, what do you think UOWedding does?
It allows you to write a speech macro, and hit a 'say' button to post it to the UOGame screen.

But ok, Jeremy has spoken, albeit I believe somewhat ill-informed and certainly flies in the face of info given by other quasi-official & official people, some of whom were/are employees of EA Mythic.
Glamdring being one name off the long list of UOWedding credits that is still a familiar name around UO I would think.

Not often you're wrong Pet, and you're right again!!

I better cancel my accounts immediately as punishment for using such terrible tools. Shall I page a GM on myself retrospectively so I can be officially banned?

Someone better tell Stratics management too, so they can delete all those references because clearly they would be a breach of Stratics ROC too.... maybe zigzag would be the best one to inform? Shall I send him a PM Pet, or will you?

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Although people had more to say on the subject,Jeremy didnt, so thats all Ill be posting.Will be interesting to see how Stratics respond to this though.

Nice Informative post Tabs, it's worthy of FAQ section.

Yes. interesting thread
At one time the programs listed on the main page of Stratics were given the ok, at least by Stratics themselves

I think this stance of EAM isn't and will never be enforced.
They just made that list of approved games so they don't need to keep downloading and testing every single 3rd party app to UO do define what's legal and what's not.
They won't be running around checking if players are using certain programs.
UOPro died, and frankly there aren't many 3rd party programs beeing developed to UO anymore. A small effort to test the most used programs and make an updated list, and some useful guidlines of what is actually valid...

Hell, you could make unnatended macro without even using a UO-specific tool..
There's a program called UO Auto-Pilot, that let you script a macro...
The thing is, it does not interfere with the data packets or anything, it just automatically moves the mouse around, doing what you would do...
There are MANY macro programs for desktop applications that would do the same thing...
So there it is, macroing without a UO tool...
Also, really hard to believe that something like UOLoop would be illegal...
UOLoop simply keeps repeating the same keystroke, to use a macro you made in UO, so you don't have to press ctrl+f1 hundreds of time to train arms lore.
And there are many desktop programs that would do that.

I use Razor, that is just like UOA, but free to use... Doesn't give me any advantage UOA wouldn't give me (auto picking regs from ground, opening corpses, etc), and I don't even use those things...
I use it for recording macros for training.
There isn't a single thing I do in UO that is illegal, and using an app EAM refuses to test is my only "crime"

Amazing how one hand doesn't seem to know what the other hand is doing ....

The UOWedding program was a lifesavor over the years as a cleric and it was a main concern for other clerics and player run event coordinators with the concept of bringing Punkbuster into UO.

During the 'debate' feedback time Stratics hosted a UOHoc (June 28, 2006) dedicated to Punkbuster and the question about UOWeddings was specifically asked and received an answer from Draconi ...


You may read the full UOHoC record here on UO Forums.

-------------------------------------------

Before the UOHoC there was discussion on it and Wilkie did respond with ...
and June 21, 2006 reiterating the same position he states ...

To quote my favorite UO cow tipper Bonami .... "Wow, it's all clear as mud now."

Thread updated, Jeremy replied with

Half of the programs that aint legal at moment.. you can do macros in UOA to do the same things.. WHY do you need these programs?

I do know that 75% of UO population could be banned though.. for using some other.. Hell I could have been banned ALOT of times.. I dont care and many others dont care.. and they cant catch you.. Still do what you think is morally right...

Take a chance.. hmmm yea i would.. over and over again., But i can say ive never ever used any kind of speedhack or something that gives me a + over others for many years... I've used UOEX long ago before UOA. But these days UOA can do everything... Just think yourself how to make a macro.

Ah, the bi-annual "are these programs legal or not" thread. I don't really see the purpose of this thread; their primary goal is to get EA to say "yes" or "no", but in the end, does it really matter? Did EA saying "no" end the wide-scale use of finduo/searchuo? Would a "no" stop the wide-scale use of UOAssist (if they changed their mind, for example)? Does a "no" prevent the use of scripting programs? The answer is, ironically, no. Cheating is relative and as long as the game continues with its many gameplay/UI problems, it will continue to be a murky area.

Is anyone else getting tired of this "cheating in UO" subject? I know I sure am.

Thanks for the info QueenMum ,it was interesting to read the original 'chat' again and ty Adam for Jeremy's update.

Funny how EA will choose to follow the letter of the law when any other answer would involve them actually having to pay attention to the fanbase. The list of legal applications is 8 years old. By NOT updating that list, EA is actively discouraging contributions from its already dwindling fan community.

Alienation sounds like a great practice for a company that, by many peoples' accounts, is struggling to keep subscribers as it is.

UOWedding is illegal... LMAO!!!!!!

I think until EA actually take positive steps to remove cheaters and scammers ,new threads will always pop up,as new/returning players come across those issues.

I think the question Digger poses here is going down a slightly different path though,as many,many people have used UO Wedding for a variety of occassions and UOMap to navigate in game.

As Queen Mum said,UOWedding was a life saver for her when she was a cleric.

I have also used the programme for many knight ceremonies I have held.

The Baron of Vesper also used the same programme.

NONE of us however are 'cheaters' and I have never even used UO Assist.

I think the issue of the programmes Stratics links to ,is very important to those of us who dont want to be seen to be using anything 'illegal' .

That list was always considered as 'kosher' and for EA to now imply many on the list are no longer allowed is a big turn around and clarification is definately needed.

LOL
It's laughable indeed.
They really aren't doing themselves any favours right now, what with cancelling both the EM program and the fansite program, then naming two search sites as "illegal", now saying all programs not listed on the uo pro page are also illegal...my god, where does it stop.

Mythic...wow, I really thought things would improve when they took over, it seems to be the opposite.
Mind you, the more disgruntled the playerbase is with UO, perhaps they think the more likely they'll be to switch to Warhammer when it comes out