BajaElladan posts hoping to have a discussion on his chosen topic.

Hail Sosarians & UO Straticians,

Ultima Online is a subscription based service providing access, for fees paid by its subscribers, to the virtual world of Sosaria, a multi-player online gaming world.

I understand EA's disclaimers. They "own" it all, and we, the paying subscribers own nothing.

However, it is absurd and unacceptable for any Company or Corporation selling goods or services to claim their customers have NO rights as paying customers.

I am NOT writing this to advocate anything pertaining to legal rights in a nation of lawyers, lawmakers, and lawsuits.

However, I am writing this in hope of having a discussion, mainly with other paying subscribers but also with former or potentially future customers, about the minimum expectation we are entitled to as paying subscribers, and the obligation(s) of EA to us as paying subscribers.

EA requires everyone seeking to become a subscriber to assert they have read and agree to abide by Rules of Conduct (ROC) and Terms of Service (TOS)
agreements.

It would seem to me that at a minimum, EA has an obligation to enforce its ROC/TOS, both upon and for, its paying subscribers.

I have played, and paid for, UO for 122 months. I remember well years gone by when a Page sent to a GameMaster (GM) resulted in the arrival AND appearance of an in game GM to assist the subscriber with whatever problem or situation caused them to Page a GM. In those bygone days, a GM arrived usually within minutes, often even sooner than that.

In those days GM's main function was to deal with "game stopping or interrupting" situations, yet they often would also to what they were able to do to facilitate the subscribers enjoyment of EA's service. I also remember that in addition to the "Red Robed" GM's, we also had "Blue Robed" Counsellors to aid players mainly with "how to, where to," advice pertaining not to game stopping situations, but more with customer service, quality of service situations and issues.

Both the GM's and the Cousellors were provided to its subscribers by EA during times with higher subscriber numbers than are estimated to exist today, but also during times of lower subscriber fees than currently.

Today the Counsellor service no longer exists, and GM's are rarely seen, and usually only after average waiting times of hours, days, or even weeks. This means that EA No Longer provides staff to ensure and enforce adherence with the ROC/TOS.

Please DO NOT abuse this Thread to discuss bugs, exploits, cheaters, dupers, scripters, etc.

However, I am interested in hearing from others AND especially from Jeremy of EAMythic and any other employees of EA or EA Mythic, as to what is the minimum level of service we, paying subscribers, are entitled to.

I am not a Lawyer. And I did not spend last night at a Holiday Inn Express. However, it is my understanding that where compensation (payment of fees for goods or services) is given then goods or services must be delivered as promised. I believe in any "contract" the terms are "consideration" and "meeting of minds," must exist for a contract to be valid and binding.

It is my assertion that the minimum I am entitled to for payment of my subscription fee, is a reasonably stable and working game where the basic and fundamental ROC/TOS are ensured and enforced upon all paying customers.

I know of NO example in the United States where a Company or Corporation may sell a good or a service with NO obligation on the part of the seller or service provider pertaining to the purchasers fee(s).

I am asking someone from EA or EA Mythic to dialogue with their subscribers here in this Forum regarding what we as paying customers have a right to, or expectation of, in return or exchange for the fees we pay.

If all I, or we as a community hear is "your sole right to, or expectation of, is access with no enforcement of ROC/TOS, I will accept that reluctantly. However, I do not think it unreasonable to inquire of our Provider what they view as our reasonable minimum level of service.

Respectfully,

Elladan of Baja for himself and perhaps many others.

~~~

Ahead of Jeremy's response,Raven Winterhawk says

Actually, its all in the Terms of Service.

Maybe your talking more philosphically. Either case, we arent owed anything because we can terminate our subscription.

~~~~

This will probably be almost as annoying as me not posting at all, but I just wanted to let you know that neither I nor any other dev is going to comment on the legality of the TOS/ROC or anything remotely related. That's lawyer turf, and they get very, very territorial.

E. Jeremy Dalberg
UO Community Coordinator
EA Mythic
www.uo.com

~~~~


Jeremy,

I acknowledge that you read my post, and that you responded quickly, even in exemplary speed.

However, it did sound a little like your reply said go read the legalize.

I have read both the ROC and the TOS. Are you at least able to comment upon IF or HOW EA enforces their ROC & TOS?

Reading those documents sounds a lot like EA is saying "play at your own risk, no warranty of any kind," and this I won't quote but will summarize, if you don't enjoy it, quit.

What good does the ROC and TOS do your subscribers if we have no remedy or application for a remedy when others violate the ROC or TOS?

I suppose I may reasonably conclude no online or in game remedy exists, or if no in game remedy exists, the only online remedy is to submit a report and hope it helps.

I'm an adult, 52 years young. However, I think I, and maybe many others would get upset less if we enjoyed realistic understandings of what we as customers should expect.

Are we to hope for the best but expect the worst, or said differently, expect nothing?

Elladan of Baja

p.s. I understand caution based upon our litigious society, but EA's disclaimers and legalize should deal with all that.

Surely someone from EA is permitted to have discussions with subscribers using common word usage and frank responses w/o resorting to legal mumbo jumbo.

Am I wrong or merely naive

~~~~

Many points of view were posted ,but Ill end with Jeremy's final reply.

For your reference:

"Electronic Arts' failure to enforce at any time any of the provisions of this Agreement shall in no way be construed to be a present or future waiver of such provisions, nor in any way affect the right of any party to enforce each and every such provision thereafter."

E. Jeremy Dalberg
UO Community Coordinator
EA Mythic
www.uo.com

Well they moved the thread to Spiels and Rants so it will vanish in the haze. (no surprise) So here is what I replied over there:

By agreeing to the TOS we agree to follow the rules. Unfortunately EA/Mythic seems to have no problem with not enforcing the rules. And no obligation to enforce them.

Pretty crappy contract we agreed to. Too bad we all agreed.

Basically if you no longer feel that EA/Mythic is providing a decent level of service take your money elsewhere. As a business money is all that means anything to them.

If enough people leave they will either listen and change their ways (yeah right!) or close the game when it is no longer profitable.

Both choices suck but EA/Mythic won't listen, and won't change.

The sad thing about UO when it finally shuts down, is that this same individuals from EA/Mythic will get transfered or move to another project and kill that as well.

Also have in mind... Its not only EAMythic that do this..

The whole online game industry.

Its all about the money.

As ever, the legality of an obligation is not the same as the morality of an obligation - some of the Dev team spent their 'free time' fixing stuff for us, as per Draconi on the current invasion, but as a whole, the company are always going to default to the legalese. They are happy if we pay them and are liable to do the minimum required to keep their assessed worthwhile amount of revenue coming in.

After all, they could shut down all the servers bar one, stick that on a low bandwidth line, and still be within the terms of the 'agreement' we signed up to with them. The only reason for them to do anything more than that is money, either from us or from other products if their treatment of part of their customer base is so bad it knocks on to their general reputation, and thus indirectly their share price....

That be true
It's a shame Mark Jacobs is in charge of it all, I don't think he cares much for UO.
But, with most of the devs leaving come December and everything moving to Virginia, perhaps the new blood will help UO, or do the opposite
I wouldn't be surprised to see UO get shared resources with the DAOC team.